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  1. #11
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    DQ I'm sorry you had that experience when you were in France. They were probably immigrants from somewhere or Communists. France has been invaded and about 25% of their nation belongs to the Communist Party. When I was in France in the late 80's, we were very distrustful because of all the "anti-American" sentiment of the French towards the Americans that we had read in the newspaper before our trip. That was 18 years ago. We found the French people everywhere we went to be friendly and the complete opposite of what we'd been told.

    All I can say DQ, is hate the French and speak badly of them if you wish. This is America, a nation the French helped our forefathers establish.
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  2. #12

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    American Bashin'

    I'm going to have to side with DonQuixote on this one. I am a retired soldier who spent nearly half of my career stationed overseas in Europe. Two tours in Germany, and one tour in Mons, Belgium.

    While it is rare to face the openly hostile actions that DonQuixote mentions, it is the countless little things you experience when you *live* there. I can only guess that it is somewhat like the experiences of American blacks who say they face racism every day. Nothing overt, just a look, a gesture, a comment under the breath and the rare instance of outright bigotry.

    As far as our actions in Iraq go, I will probably never be able to come to grips the mentality that cannot grasp the mountain of information and advisors and leaders of many countries who as a consensus *knew* Saddam had designs to make and use WMD. The evidence that intelligence agencies from *nearly all* of them support this information, and Saddam's actions on a daily basis to thwart the inspectors who were trying to ascertain the truth all left no serious intelligence agency with any doubt that he did indeed have something to hide.

    The UN (a body that many of us here openly admit is almost completely inept and corrupt to the core) had already established resolutions that called for 'serious consequences' unless Iraq comply with the conditions of his surrender in 1991, and the resolutions of the UN after that - namely weapons inspections.

    What GWB did was what most men of action would do in his place - he called Saddam's bluff on his weapons programs, and in the process he (Bush) called the bluff of the powers in the UN who were making money hand over fist by the corruption of programs intended to ease the burden of the Iraqi people - oil for food.

    The sheep didn't like this at all, and the wolves really resented being outted from their hiding in the wool. It turns out that Saddam *was* bluffing. But unless his bluff had been called no free nation in the world could rest easy while Saddam made every effort to appear as if he did - mostly to save face among his Arab region counterparts.

    I'm disappointed that the stated reason for going into Iraq turned out to be bogus, ONLY because it makes it so easy for those who objected to the thwarting of Saddam's threat to feel so indignant. I wonder how they'd feel if *and when* Saddam or his wacko sons used gas on a rebel village later on?

    The Iraqi people deserved better, the Arab region deserved better, and the world deserved better - And as usual, it was a resolute American who made life better for all of those parties. I'm proud to be counted among the few who have worn a uniform to make that sort of decision come to bear fruit.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin

  3. #13
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    But we have brutal dictatorships all over the world--one 90 miles off of our coast--and we sure can't "liberate" them all. I just feel that going to war should be in the interests of protecting our nation from threats to our own country. I certainly don't argue the point that Saddam was brutal but so are so many others.

    Also--it seems to me that, given the choice, the Iraqi people would have preferred what they had to what they have now. That seems to be the consensus. They sure don't appear grateful for our sacrifice. They don't seem to feel that their lives are any better.

    IF a democracy takes hold, and I think that really IS a big IF, they eventually might feel differently but, right now all they are seeing is death and destruction and absence of law and order. They sure didn't greet us with open arms as we had been promised. I tell ya--we were misled about SO MANY things that it is difficult for me to trust anything else they tell us.
    "POWER TENDS TO CORRUPT AND ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY." Sir John Dalberg-Acton

  4. #14

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    Bootsie,

    I'm retired military, and still in contact with lots of folks who have served and are serving over there in Iraq. Your impression that the Iraqi people don't like what they have now is not based on fact.

    The mainstream media mantra of 'if it bleeds, it leads' is so prevasive it is hard to get a true idea of how grateful the people are unless you talk to them or to the soldiers who dealt with them every day.

    When was the last time you saw a story about the Iraqi children chasing the American convoys to wave hi and hope for a piece of chocolate? The kids *know* they have it better...so do their parents....

    It's just not what we hear over here.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin

  5. #15
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    I do believe that the media slants the situation and presents the worst case scenario but I still think that the general population would rather have Saddam there than the constant threat of being blown up, having no electricity, sewage systems, etc. I know that our men are doing all they can to make things right for the Iraqi's but I just don't feel they, and WE, are appreciated. I try to balance what I see on TV with what I THINK is probably closer to the truth.
    "POWER TENDS TO CORRUPT AND ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY." Sir John Dalberg-Acton

  6. #16
    Senior Member BobC's Avatar
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    Oh for God's sake. I've travelled all over the place and find it dishonest, to say the least, to say any "people" thinks one way or another about Americans. The French, for instance, are all different. Some love us, some hate us, and some don't care one way or another. Now our MILITARY is a whole other ball of worms. Alot of people around the globe see our military as bullies, just the way a lot of Americans see cops as bullies.

    You know I have friends in the military who spent lots of time in Russia after the Great Fall, and to my surprise, after years of being brain-washed into thinking Russians hated America, my freinds said most of the people in Russia were really curious about Americans and they admired us. Some people didn't want our military there, but most couldn't wait to talk to our soldiers.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy
    I don't know who you are quoting with the word "stupid",
    Quote Originally Posted by Bootsie
    If I, as an individual, see my friend doing something that is STUPID, what would I do?? Would I try to discourage them from doing it or would I jump right in and do it with them? I HOPE I would try to discourage them from doing it but, if they were hell-bent on doing it anyway, I would hope I would distance myself from them.

  8. #18
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    I wasn't quoting ANYONE when I used the word "stupid". It was an analogy of what I would do if I saw a friend doing something stupid. Would I blindly jump in and do the same thing or would I try to convince them otherwise. Likewise with Iraq--if the allies who supported us in Afghanistan thought that our going to Iraq was stupid, are they obligated to blindly follow us or stand up to us and follow their own convictions.
    "POWER TENDS TO CORRUPT AND ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY." Sir John Dalberg-Acton

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy
    All I can say DQ, is hate the French and speak badly of them if you wish. This is America, a nation the French helped our forefathers establish.
    Sure they helped us in our revolution.. they were at WAR with Britain and saw it as a good opportunity to break it off in the Brits.

    It is also a fact that more French fought against the allies when we invaded, than fought against the Germans when THEY invaded. True there were many who participated in the underground, but there was no shortage of supporters for the Vichy govt. The French Fleet even opened up on our fleets when we invaded N. Africa.. until the U.S.S. Massachusetts sent their flagship, the Jeane Bart, to the bottom.

    Do not get me wrong, my unfavorable opinion is not confined to the French. It applies to most of Europe in general. I am not one of those people who is enamoured with everything european... and if our ancestors had been they woulda never left and came here. The imperialistic tendancies of those nations, which continued right up into the middle of the 20th century, created a BIG chunk of the problems we have in the world today. Half of the problems of the middle east today are due to Europe attempting not just colonization of wilderness.. but the subjegation of other nations. We can thank European meddling for the breakup of the Ottoman Empire leading to most of our middle eastern problems. We can thank them for the problems we now have with China, which after decades of European exploitation embraced marxism. We can thank French colonialism, specifically, for the Vietnam War.

    Yes, Europe rebuilt after destroying themselves in WWII.. mostly at OUR EXPENSE. Today they arrogantly look down their noses at America because we are not so "enlightened" as they are with socialized medicine and all the other benefits they give. But then again, perhaps we could have afforded such things as well, if we had not been busy paying for western Europes defense for the last 50 years. Then we get treated to exhibitions of the American flag being burned at protests all over Europe, and red swastikas being painted on the graves of Americans, at Normandy, who died to free the French from the nazis. "Free the French".. what a joke... half of them should been hung right alongside the nazis as collaborators. I also feel that French activity of selling arms to Saddam, even as we were deployed and about to enter battle against him, goes beyond simple passivity or diplomatic opposition to active support of our enemy in war.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bootsie
    I do believe that the media slants the situation and presents the worst case scenario but I still think that the general population would rather have Saddam there than the constant threat of being blown up, having no electricity, sewage systems, etc. I know that our men are doing all they can to make things right for the Iraqi's but I just don't feel they, and WE, are appreciated. I try to balance what I see on TV with what I THINK is probably closer to the truth.
    I think it is safe to say that other than Fox, most of the networks are not big supporters of Bush, nor of the war. They obviously try to put a bad slant on the news coming from Iraq. Ya think Iraqis are spending every moment in fear of being blown up at any moment? Do New Yorkers spend every moment in fear of dying at the hands of a criminal? The murder rate in New York is currently higher than it is in Baghdad. How many reports do ya see on the MSM about the thousands of schools, hospitals, homes, etc that have been built? Our troops give candy to some Iraqi children, and a bomber drives into the crowd, and within a day some of our own media is suggesting that it is our TROOPS fault. Give me a break.

    When you say "I try to balance what I see on TV with what I THINK is probably closer to the truth".. just what are you basing that "THINK"ing on? Since all ya really have as a basis to draw an opinion upon is what we are told on the media, and what the troops coming home say, all else is pure speculation and imagination. I personally know several dozen guardsmen and reservists, and while many of the grouse about having to deploy over there for so long and being away from home (just as they did in EVERY war including at Valley Forge), nearly EVERY ONE I spoke too feels what is happening there is a good thing and that the media is distorting this in a BAD way.

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