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  1. #1

    Join Date
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    illegals come here to create a "lesser" life for A

    I know we don't live in a zero-sum world........ for one person to gain something, another person does not necessarily have to lose something.

    However, i think it is time to start framing the debate that way.

    Illegals come to America to make life worse for those that are already here. An illegal alien cannot gain anything without taking away from another person.


    Unfortunately, i don't think this kind of arguement will get much traction.
    Why? (partially because I don't believe it) because many outside of America, and many guilty ,white liberals in America, think that Americans deserve to live a worse life.

    America has had it good for to long, and needs to suffer. The most just outcome then, is for America to be flooded with millions of turd-worlders.

    All the people in the world who have had nothing....should take everything that America has.

    Only when America is a conquered, defeated, starving , raped people, will justice have been served.

    Pardon my depressing rant, and my flawed logic, but that logic is what motivates the masses.

    Maybe my debate-framing idea needs to be tweaked, so it sounds like something besides , "dey took r jbbs" (South Park accent).

    -pa

  2. #2
    Senior Member
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    Most definitely third worlders want to see Americans punished for having had a reasonably decent life. Little do they realize that by our sacrifice ( foreign aid funds) we have bettered their lives as much as one people can aid another people.

    There are many misconceptions in the thoughts and ideas of people outside the US....mainly that we have never had to 'work' for our money. It was a gift from our government.

    They don't realize that our government has destroyed our lives as frequently as possible via the use of recessions and recoveries. Fiat money allows them to do that...therefore many times complete lives are destroyed...all that has been worked and planned for dissipated in one of the 'recessions'.

    RR
    The men who try to do something and fail are infinitely better than those who try to do nothing and succeed. " - Lloyd Jones

  3. #3
    Senior Member
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    Re: illegals come here to create a "lesser" life f

    It's ZPG you speak of "Zero Population Growth" the growth rate in Europe and North America is almost stable from 0 to 1.5%

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenixashes
    Unfortunately, i don't think this kind of arguement will get much traction. Why? (partially because I don't believe it).
    I think you are wrong here. Think back a ways to the time before illegal immigration. How did gardens get cared for? how did pools get cleaned? how did yards get mowed? how did hotels get cleaned? How did fields get farmed? simple. Hard working americans worked hard or had their family units work with them. I remeber mowing yards with my dad to make extra cash until a landscaping company began hiring hispanic workers and we could not charge as little as him.

    My grandma used to work at a hotel cleaning the rooms. The cortez hotel in Harrisonville MO. If you go there now who has the job? yes an illegal. Who is to say someone else like my grandma didn't want that job?
    Your argument that no wants these jobs is unfound and can explain legal citizens becoming addicted to the welfare society we have created. I mean if someone else is doing the work why should they right? In turn what we are creating is a society where it takes twice as many people to do a job for the same cost. This is a good short run formula but in the long run will lead to disaster. Tack onto that most of the money earned by illegals is untaxed and shipped to thier country of origin, sometimes by the us gov't itself, and this problem becomes excessive.

    This is no longer an issue of a few businesses cutting corners to be more competitive, this is now an issue of american businesses knowingly violating federal laws which are in place to protect our economy just for their ceo and boards gains (or private gain in the circumstance of landscapers)

    You could also use the supply and demand example from an economical stand point. Say your country demands 10 unskilled laborers (it's a small country). You country current has a supply of 8 unskilled laborers so citizens of your neighboring country come to your country to work because they will earn more for their families and you have a need for them.

    In one year the supply goes from 8 to 11. The next year it increases to 16 and the next year 24. Now your countries demand for the unskilled labor has increased from 10 to 50 however wages incur a drop of 25% for unskilled labor. The next year the labor supply goes to 36 and the next year it more than doubles to 90. At this time the unskilled labor wages plumit another 45% and forces a massive gap between the classes.

    At this "breaking point' the labor supply will continue to more than double as long as the wages are more than those of the neighboring country. Eventaually the two countries economies will resemble one another with the welthier one suffering major losses due to the sudden influx of unneeded labor (producer's surplus), the sudden shortfall of consumer income, and the sudden loss of government revenue from the ability to successful tax the workers.

    This scenerio doesnt count in the the sociological aspects of all of this. Consider you as the general manager of a McDonald's chain hire a bi-lingual legal citizen to be a store manager who has a work visa from Mexico. The store manager now has the ability to hire and fire at will. He connects better with those who speak his native tongue and he speaks it more frequently so he begins to replace employees with those that resemble what he is familiar with. The next thing you know the store is filled with those who are not too familiar with the english language. The manager intelligently assaigns those with better english comprehension to the registers to speak to the customers, however, he now must hire bi-lingual workers to speak to the cooks who make no attempts to speak the language (although they must be able to read the monitors which display english instructions and order information). Now when the manager goes to hire a new employee to fill the stores minority quota (a black or white person) that employee will most likely not fit in and attempt to communicate with english causing difficulty. That employee may not work at the store too long due to the stress caused by the constant failure to communicate and then the store manager can claim "i must hire spanish workers legal or illegal because english speaking workers don't last too long"

    The above scenario is underway in thousands of stores, restaurants, and inns across the count. many 'enlightened' individuals (normally those profiting from this mentallity) suggest that for workers to get in to min. wage jobs to managerial roles they must learn spanish. An idea I reject as ludacris, someone else can go tell thomas jefferson that half the workers in this country can't read his declaration of independence.

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Posts
    239
    Maybe you mis-understood me.

    I don't believe that for any one person to succeed, another person must fail.

    Someone can improve their standard of living, without harming someone else's standard.

    However, over-all , illegal immigration , and legal immigration is at un-sustainable levels, for Americans to enjoy a first-world standard of living.



    -pa

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