Thread: Israel's Sharon Resigns!! Protests in TURKEY!!

You are scaring the be-jeepers out of me but thank you for a lively and interesting discussion. LOL

I had half read some of these "neo-con" theories before but never so well presented as this. Thank you Bootsie for posting them and thank you American First for injecting your comments.

I based my comments on Sharon on comments made to me by Polish Jews I knew overseas who were banking on him setting things right. It appears that he is letting them down now by phyiscally dragging Jews out of the Gaza. But perhaps that is just a ruse.

I've heard of and know of other ruses engineered by the Israeli government over the years that lead me to agree that this could be the case.

As for the "people" all over the world, from what I have seen, most of them are just like the people here--struggling to feed their families, keep a roof over their heads and dodge the bullets when their administrations fail them. Political events shape the minds of the people just like the threat of a Communist takeover of the US shaped the minds of the people of my own generation. Propaganda is rampant whether people choose to believe they are victims or not.

Chris, some of those common people I mention are Palestinians who aren't political but are pawns of an unscrupulous government just like the pawns of other unscrupulous governments. Given that the Palestinians had no country at all and weren't allowed to be citizens of the Arab countries they were born in yet many refused to go to "Palestine" once it was handed to them, I am inclined to believe that most are STILL just average people struggling to survive. They are scattered all over the world just like the Jewish people. Does that mean the two nationalities are pre-disposed to clashes in countries all over the world out of sympathy for their countrymen? I wonder.

AmericanFirst, your comments about the American people taking control of the border puzzle me. Do you not believe that if the people force the government to enforce the laws that it is the same thing as physically taking control?

Once again, this is lively conversation and I hope you will all keep it going.

"What would you do if day after day your people were being blown up by a band of wackos stuck in the Middle Ages?

The Palestinians dont just want the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, etc they want ALL of Israel and remove every non Muslim from that land."


Thats not completely true though. Yes their are certainly criminals on the Palestinian side who seek to use the situation to their advantage, but let us not forget that their are also Christians and Druze who are being treated very unfairly by the Israeli government. The Israeli's have sought to outlaw any Christians from attempting to convert Jews to their faith. Christians should have a right to attempt to seek to draw people to their beliefs just as any other religion. The Israeli's like to claim that Israel is the most diverse nation in the middle east, and while this may be true strickly from a demopraphics standpoint, the policies of the government are very appartheid in their nature. The Ashkenazi Jews who make up the power base of Israel are not too fond of the Ethiopian Jews who are more or less a second class citizen within the Zionist state.

There are a great many Palestinians, and Torah and secular Jews who simply want peace and co existance, but their peace process has been sabbotaged over and over again primarily by the actions of Israeli government through planned derailments and false promises to the Palestinians. The Jews greatly fear the growing block of Arab Israeli's voters who have also been more or les second class citizens in the land that they hold just as much right to as the Jews, and have seldom included them in coalition governments and have been descriminated against for civil service employment. The situation becomes worse with each incident where the government cracks down on Palestinians, and Israeli Arabs stock in their own country dwindles. While the Zionist government tries to paint a picture of militant Palestinians being the only problem in Israel, nothing could be further from the truth.

Originally Posted by Bootsie

I agree BUT there IS a compromise and neither side is interested in compromise. I also consider the fact that Palestine has a CHRISTIAN population as well as Muslim.

You cant compromise with arrogant people who are hell bent on seeing Israel "wiped off the map"!

"AmericanFirst, your comments about the American people taking control of the border puzzle me. Do you not believe that if the people force the government to enforce the laws that it is the same thing as physically taking control?"

Our government has already demonstrated time and time again that they are unwilling to enforce the borders of our country. Roughly 4 out of 5 Americans want our immigration laws enforced and illegal immigration addressed yet our politicians at the National Level simply will not address the Issue. Instead of enforcing the border, the government continues to drag their feet and tell the American people that they are looking into more guest worker programs and Amnesty to solve our problems. They know that this will do nothing. When the minute men went to Arizona along a 20 mile stretch that was a hotbed of illegal immigration, the illegal immigrants crossing the border in that area were reduced by 98%. Currently the border patrol still practices in most cases the catch and release method, and illegals simply regroup and attempt a crossing again at a more opportune time. With an ever vigilant civilan presence on the border we embarrass the government and expose them as doing nothing, which in turn may be the only pressure that actually forces them to enforce our borders. When George Bush called the minute men vigilantes he did so because it made his administration look all the more corrupt and derelict in its duties to protect us.

I don't know, BBean. I just don't believe that ALL Palestinians WANT to see Israel wiped off the map. I think that the Palestinians were there long before there was an Israel and my feeling is that it should go back to what it was before the 7 Day War in the late 60's.

I think Sharon is just WAY too MILITANT for my liking and, now that Arafat is out of the picture, I still believe that there can be a workable solution.

Originally Posted by Bootsie

Here it is! I just CHEERED when I read this because the religious right WANTS to align themselves with Israel and it has something to do with Armageddon. They believe that, when Jesus comes back, he will come back in Jerusalem. They think that it's okay for Jews to be there because they are "God's Chosen People" and God promised them the land.

National Briefs
U.S. Jewish leader calls 'religious right' 'zealots'
JOURNAL WIRE REPORT
Sunday, November 20, 2005


HOUSTON - The leader of the largest branch of American Judaism blasted conservative religious activists in a speech yesterday, calling them "zealots" who claim a "monopoly on God" while promoting anti-gay policies akin to Adolf Hitler's.

Rabbi Eric Yoffie, the president of the liberal Union for Reform Judaism, said that "religious right" leaders believe that "unless you attend my church, accept my God and study my sacred text, you cannot be a moral person."

"What could be more bigoted than to claim that you have a monopoly on God?" he said during the movement's national assembly in Houston, which runs through today.

I believe in every word in the bible. Does that make me a religious "zealot" who has a "monopoly on God"?

I think there is somthing to the fact that many Far Right Extremists are gearing up for Armaggedon, but I think its also a very small minority of conservatives(I Hope). I think many more conservatives are traditional supporters of Israel because they equate the Jewish people with the bible and Jesus, and really believe that Israel is the one true democracy in the Middle East(Which I have serious doubts about.) As far as Jews, I don't think the average Jew has anything against Christianity, I think its people like Abe Foxman and the ADL who have a problem with Christianity. As far as calling these people representatives of the Jewish faith as some in the White Nationalist movements believe I would disagree. I think they are appostates who could really care less about religion and care more about advancing their political agenda and power, part of which is discrediting Christianity. I believe their attacks comes not as an attack on Christianity, but on the people that it represents, the traditional conservative, who represent the greatest threats to their plans of Hegemony. I think alot of White Nationalist movements have done a great dis service to Christians and Normal Americans, even though they tend to parrot the points about immigration and the problems in our society that the majority of Americans are concerned with.


I think they play into the ADL's hands by giving ammunition with which to hurt normal Americans. There was a rally in Kingston New York to protest the brutal beating of a young white boy named Hendrick by the White Nationalists complete with National Socialists in Nazi Regalia. The media uses this type of garbage to make it seem like anyone who wants to preserve the demographics of our country and stop illegal immigration is like to these who have taken things to the extreme. The ADL and the media would love to paint all Christians in with Nazi's and pointy hat wearing Klansmen.

I think its important that Normal Americans not get drawn into this kind of thing as we fight to preserve our borders and our nations integrity. We must be very careful who allow ourselves to be represented with.

I think I said they were big supporters of ISRAEL---both financially and politically. Therefore, I don't think that Palestine is getting a fair shake with these neocons setting the agenda.

I'm not sure about the "Monopoly on God" part BUT I do know dozens of fundamentalists who think that THEIR WAY IS THE ONLY WAY and I do NOT believe that. I expect people to respect my right to my beliefs and I certainly expect their right to their beliefs. It's when they try to cram it down my throat that their rights cease.

I believe in the basic tenets of the Bible but it would be very difficult to believe the Bible word for word since, for almost every statement in the Bible, you can find an OPPOSITE. I believe that it is EVERYONE'S right to interpret the Bible in the way they see fit and feel comfortable. I just believe their rights do not include condemning MINE. Nor I, theirs.

Quote Bootsie:
I believe in the basic tenets of the Bible but it would be very difficult to believe the Bible word for word since, for almost every statement in the Bible, you can find an OPPOSITE. I believe that it is EVERYONE'S right to interpret the Bible in the way they see fit and feel comfortable. I just believe their rights do not include condemning MINE. Nor I, theirs.[/quote]

Of course no one can believe the bible 'word for word'. Same with the Koran. Anyway, thank goodness we live in America and can, at least for now, believe and practice any religion we want to.

You are SO right, Butterbean. THAT is why our country was founded and, unless Bush and Co. destroys that too, we are free to believe whatever we choose to believe. HOWEVER, I don't think our Founding Fathers were aware of the Koran so they might have had a WEE problem with that!