Thread: Massive tax package offers breaks for just about everyone

Originally Posted by MW

You're absolutely right, johnwk, passing the unfair tax plan before repealing the 16th amendment is akin to placing the cart before the horse. It's a a bad idea and very risky. Actually there are many problem with the unfair tax. Your valid point is just one on a long list. Not to worry, the plan has been floating around for many years but never seems to get the traction it's supporters want or need (that's a good thing).

What I have never been able to get a straight answer to from the advocates of the alleged fairtax is, why do they reject the "FAIR SHARE BALANCED BUDGET AMENDMENT" which would withdraw Congress' power to lay and collect any tax calculated from profits, gains and other lawfully earned incomes and return us to our Constitution's original tax plan and force Congress to once again raise its revenue by taxing consumption.

I thought the proponents of the "fairtax" support taxing consumption. Why do they object to returning to our Constitution's ORIGINAL TAX PLAN which would accomplish their goal?

In any event, at least there is universal agreement in wanting to withdraw Congress' power to lay and collect taxes calculated from "incomes" and compel Congress to raise its revenue by taxing consumption.


JWK

“Honest money and honest taxation, the Key to America’s future Prosperity“ ___ from “ProsperityRestored by the State Rate Tax Plan”, no longer in print.

Originally Posted by johnwk

What I have never been able to get a straight answer to from the advocates of the alleged fairtax is, why do they reject the "FAIR SHARE BALANCED BUDGET AMENDMENT" which would withdraw Congress' power to lay and collect any tax calculated from profits, gains and other lawfully earned incomes and return us to our Constitution's original tax plan and force Congress to once again raise its revenue by taxing consumption.

I thought the proponents of the "fairtax" support taxing consumption. Why do they object to returning to our Constitution's ORIGINAL TAX PLAN which would accomplish their goal?

In any event, at least there is universal agreement in wanting to withdraw Congress' power to lay and collect taxes calculated from "incomes" and compel Congress to raise its revenue by taxing consumption.


JWK

“Honest money and honest taxation, the Key to America’s future Prosperity“ ___ from “ProsperityRestored by the State Rate Tax Plan”, no longer in print.

The FairTax by definition is an indirect tax on consumption that's collected by the States who then forward the revenue once a month to the Federal Government. It's constitutional, no amendment to the Constitution is required. It exempts necessities with a Rebate up to the Household Consumption Allowance for all citizens and legal residents, regardless of income, so much for an adult, so much for a child. Business to business transactions, exports, education services and used goods are exempt. It funds both General Revenue and Social Security/Medicare. The rate is split with 14.91% for General Revenue and 8.09% earmarked for SS and Medicare.

So why do you oppose it? Why do you call it a "hoax"?

I can't imagine what problem the Founders would have with it. It's as perfect a piece of tax and economic development legislation as has ever been presented to the American People. It helps curb illegal immigration because illegal aliens are not eligible for the Rebate which makes it almost impossible for them to undercut American workers. It helps balance our trade because imports are taxed the same as domestic products, in addition to any tariffs they pay because tariffs, duties, imposts and excise taxes are still in place under the FairTax. Because businesses no longer pay income tax and are exempt from the FairTax, we are a tax haven so our manufacturers will come back home and our investors will bring their capital back to the US plus foreign companies will rush in to operate and invest in our new tax haven.

It's a 360 degree improvement for our country, citizens, workers, earners, investors, businesses and taxpayers. Everybody wins except illegal aliens and importers. I mean what more can we and this one simple piece of legislation do for you?

Originally Posted by Judy

I can't imagine what problem the Founders would have with it.

I have explained that in detail and provided documentation, and you chose to ignore it.


JWK

Originally Posted by johnwk

I have explained that in detail and provided documentation, and you chose to ignore it.


JWK

No, that is wrong. This thread is on page 3 because I haven't ignored anything you've posted. I addressed your explanations with the fact that you were claiming the FairTax was a direct tax covered by apportionment under Article 1, Section 2, when it's an indirect tax covered by Article 1, Section 8 and not subject to apportionment. You claim you support the State Rate Tax Plan suggested by someone in an article written in 1984, which is a consumption tax collected by the States. The FairTax was introduced into the US Congress in 1999, and is a consumption tax collected by the States and forwarded to the Feds. A national retail sales tax on goods and services like the FairTax is an indirect consumption tax by definition, is not subject to apportionment as if it were a direct tax, is perfectly constitutional, and restores liberty, privacy and the power of the purse to the people.

So I think there is something about the FairTax that you're missing.

Is it because you want Congress to tax specific articles of consumption instead of all new goods and services as proposed in your State Tax Rate Plan?

From your State Tax Rate Plan article:

By forcing Congress to select specific articles of consumption, as opposed to a blanket national sales tax, a system of taxation is achieved in which the general public may actively participate in the selection of the specific articles to be taxed, and, to what degree they will taxed.

Is this the bone you have to pick with the FairTax? Lets address that.

The FairTax is not a blanket national sales tax. It's a national retail sales tax on new goods and services at the final point of sale, taxed one time. Used goods and education services are exempt. Business to business sales are exempt. Exports are exempt. Charity giving is exempt, but charity retail sales and services are taxed the same as any other retail sale for money. Essentials and necessities are exempt through the Rebate for any citizen or legal resident who wants to sign up for it.

Your plan that you call the "original tax plan" is the use of excise taxes on articles of consumption. There is very little difference between an excise tax and the FairTax. They are both indirect taxes on consumption, both on goods and services, both are included in the price and by definition and practicality are the same thing, the difference is a sales tax like the FairTax is an inclusive tax on the price, whereas most excise taxes are taxes on the unit, but excise taxes are not restricted to taxes on the unit.

An excise is considered an indirect tax, meaning that the producer or seller who pays the tax to the government is expected to try to recover or shift the tax by raising the price paid by the buyer. Excises are typically imposed in addition to another indirect tax such as a sales tax or value added tax (VAT). In common terminology (but not necessarily in law), an excise is distinguished from a sales tax or VAT in three ways:

an excise typically applies to a narrower range of products;
an excise is typically heavier, accounting for a higher fraction of the retail price of the targeted products; and
an excise is typically a per unit tax, costing a specific amount for a volume or unit of the item purchased, whereas a sales tax or VAT is an ad valorem tax and proportional to the price of the good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excise

Also, in your State Tax Rate Plan, it deals with another issue which is dealing with deficits and this rate plan according to your article is to raise the money annually from the states through a direct tax subject to apportionment to balance the budget every year. That's an entirely different and separate issue, an important issue, but not one that has anything to do with how we collect federal taxes throughout the year.

But in the FairTax legislation there is a shortfall provision for Social Security and Medicare funding to ensure no shortfalls occur. This provision requires Congress to assess the revenue versus expenditures and raise the SS/Medicare rate which starts out at 8.09% to account for any deficits in that funding, which from time to time may be necessary due to inflation, benefits, recession or any number of issues that could arise. As to the General Revenue rate, they have the authority to raise or lower the 14.91% any time Congress deems fit to do so, but it is not required, whereas with the SS/Medicare portion, they are required by statute to raise the rates to ensure funding.

Many people may not realize what's been happening in SS/Medicare. As more sign up and inflation raises benefits, one would think there would be payroll tax increases to account for this so SS/Medicare doesn't go broke or rob the Trust Fund. Yet, the last time Congress raised the payroll tax rates for SS/Medicare was in 1990, 25 years ago. They even reduced the rates for 2 years during the recession and in 2013 raised it slightly but only on high-income earners. Congress has intentionally tried to bankrupt Social Security and Medicare, then wants to force Americans to work longer and receive less benefits. This betrayal scheme would never happen under the FairTax, as a matter of law under the FairTax statute.

In any event, there is nothing at all wrong with the FairTax. I realize there are income tax industry constituents who prefer the system the way it is. The income tax system runs deficits and has for 102 years, it bankrupts the country as we are now. which is the only inevitable outcome of such a system, it forces Americans into tax slavery and debt for benefits they don't receive, enables our Congress to manipulate our economy to suit its corporate and these days mostly foreign donors, and there is no end in sight with a system that hands over control of our government to globalists and socialists for the benefit of foreign interests and foreign governments, instead of our own citizens and national interest.

When solutions like the FairTax sit buried in committee for 16 years unattended to while America burns, something has gone very wrong not only with our government setting the fires but the citizenry itself that not only refuses to lift a pail of water to put them out but cries "unfair" or "hoax" to resist the needed correction.

Originally Posted by Judy

No, that is wrong. This thread is on page 3 because I haven't ignored anything you've posted. I addressed your explanations with the fact that you were claiming the FairTax was a direct tax .

Judy,

you are in error, but you are entitled to your opinion. When you decide to address my actual words, and the documentation I provided, perhaps then I will continue discussing the issue. But for now, I have lost interest because of your repeated failure to address what I have posted to you. Instead of interpreting what I have written, you should quote my words and then respond to the particular passage you quote.

Have a great weekend!

JWK

Originally Posted by johnwk

Judy,

you are in error, but you are entitled to your opinion. When you decide to address my actual words, and the documentation I provided, perhaps then I will continue discussing the issue. But for now, I have lost interest because of your repeated failure to address what I have posted to you. Instead of interpreting what I have written, you should quote my words and then respond to the particular passage you quote.

Have a great weekend!

JWK

Well, JWK, obviously the only response I have is, you are in error, but of course you are entitled to your view.

You have a great weekend as well. How long have is it been that I've been trying to understand your issue? I think it's 8 years! Maybe one day you will articulate the issue in a manner that I can understand what it is that bothers you about the FairTax so I can address it.

I sure hope we have a breakthrough at some point!