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05-10-2017, 08:44 AM #1
Yes, I understand, Johnwk. There's no conflict between the meaning of general welfare in the Preamble at the time of the Constitution and the decision by the Congress to establish a retirement system for American Workers under the authority of the commerce clause during the Depression that they pay for through payroll taxes enabled by the 16th Amendment. Where is the conflict?
Are you familiar with the actual history of general welfare actions extracting from worker payrolls for themselves as beneficiaries in the United States? It started as early as 1798 with the US Marine Hospital Service for merchant seamen. The employers extracted 20 cents from their payroll to fund hospitals for sick and disabled seamen.
July 16, 1798 — “An Act for the relief of sick and disabled Seamen” established the Marine Hospital Service for merchant seamen. The Marine Hospital Service — forerunner of the present-day PHS — became a component of the Treasury Department. A monthly hospital tax of 20 cents was deducted from the pay of merchant seamen in the first prepaid medical care plan in the United States. (1 Stat. L. 605. PDF)
March 2, 1799 — An amending act to the legislation of 1798 extended Marine Hospital Service benefits to officers and men of the U.S. Navy. This arrangement continued until 1818 after which the Navy built its own hospitals. However, the deduction of 20 cents per month from the pay of Navy and Marine Corps personnel continued until June 15, 1943. (1 Stat. L. 729.)
Do you have reason to believe that the meaning of the words "general welfare" were not understood by our Congress and President who signed this law in 1798 and amended it in 1799 to extend it to include our Navy sailors? The President in 1798 and 1799 was John Adams, who authored the US Constitution. I think he knew what the words meant and how they applied.Last edited by Judy; 05-10-2017 at 08:48 AM.
A Nation Without Borders Is Not A Nation - Ronald Reagan
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05-10-2017, 09:00 AM #2
I can see you have no intention to engaging in a productive discussion concerning the meaning of "general welfare" as it was understood during our Constitution's framing and ratification process. Additionally, you ignore the rules of constitutional construction and keep switching the subject while neglecting to comment on what I post. Why? What is your objective? What are you trying to accomplish?
JWK
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05-10-2017, 09:17 AM #3
LOL!! Oh my goodness. What are you trying to accomplish? You're the one who asked the question about where does it say in the US Constitution that the government could establish Social Security. I answered it, general welfare clause of Preamble, commerce clause of the US Constitution and the 16th Amendment to the US Constitution. I've given you an example of laws passed by Congress and signed by a President of the United States who also happened to author the US Constitution as well as sign it who I'm sure understood the words of the Preamble and the Commerce Clause he wrote as they apply to labor and extracting payroll funds for benefits in return.
If my responses to your question don't satisfy you, perhaps someone else can address your question better than I have.A Nation Without Borders Is Not A Nation - Ronald Reagan
Save America, Deport Congress! - Judy
Support our FIGHT AGAINST illegal immigration & Amnesty by joining our E-mail Alerts at https://eepurl.com/cktGTn
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05-10-2017, 09:42 AM #4
And I have documented that your above opinion is not in harmony with the Founder’s meaning of “general welfare” as expressed during our Constitution’s framing and ratification debates. Additionally, I laid out some of the rules of constitutional construction which you ignore in posting your opinion. Why do you ignore the rules of constitutional construction in arriving at your opinion with regard to the meaning of “general welfare” as it was understood by our Founders during our Constitution's framing and ratification process? Is it you aim to make "general welfare" mean whatever you wish it to mean within our Constitution's text?
JWK
Those who reject and ignore abiding by the intentions and beliefs under which our Constitution was agree to, as those intentions and beliefs may be documented from historical records, wish to remove the anchor and rudder of our constitutional system so they may then be free to “interpret” the Constitution to mean whatever they wish it to mean.
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05-10-2017, 10:00 AM #5
And I've demonstrated far beyond any discussion here requires that the term general welfare as intended by the Founders applies to Social Security and Medicare as constitutional programs under the commerce clause. You're free to disagree, of course.
A Nation Without Borders Is Not A Nation - Ronald Reagan
Save America, Deport Congress! - Judy
Support our FIGHT AGAINST illegal immigration & Amnesty by joining our E-mail Alerts at https://eepurl.com/cktGTn
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05-10-2017, 02:44 PM #6
Judy,
You have offered your unsubstantiated opinion regarding the Founder's meaning of general welfare. On the other hand, I have offered our founders very own words, and they are far different from your opinion. Here is the evidence I provided to you:
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05-10-2017, 09:13 AM #7
An Act for the relief of sick and disabled seamen
Is your memory failing you Judy? Have you forgotten our previous conversation regarding the Seamen's Act?
See: https://www.alipac.us/f9/media%60s-new-big-lie-founders-mandate-health-insurance-in1798-215569/
The fact is, I wrote extensively on this subject, e.g.,
Rick Ungar’s big lie:Founders mandated health insurance in1798
See:Congress Passes Socialized Medicine and Mandates Health Insurance -In1798
Just for the record, I addressed this very issue back in 2009 when a progressive tried to pretend our Founders MANDATED health insurance in 1798. But like a vampire which can't be killed, the same big lie returns over and over again and is panhandled by our big progressive loving media.
To begin with, AnAct for the relief of sick and disable seamen which Rick Ungar refers to was directed at licensed American flag ships engaged in commerce among the States and/or with foreign nations, and also directed at our Navy and its personnel. It had nothing to do with the kind of despotic intrusion our federal government is now attempting with regard to the American People’s decisions and choices regarding their health care needs.
In spite of the actual limitations of the act, the crackpot at forbes, Rick Ungar, writes: ” The law authorized the creation of a government operated marine hospital service and mandated that privately employed sailors be required to purchase health care insurance.”
What Rick Ungar fails to tell his readers is, the sailors he refers to are not merely privately employed sailors, but are employed on ships licensed by the United States and engaged in commerce among the States and/or with foreign nations. Last time I read our Constitution it declares that Congress has power to regulate commerce among the states and with foreign nations.
The legislation reads:
1 § 1. Be it enacted ……. That from and after the first day of September next, the master or owner of everyship or vessel of the United States, arriving from a foreign port into any portof the United States, shall …..
§ 2. That from and after the first day of September next, no collector shall grant to any ship or vessel whose enrollment or license for carrying on the coasting trade has expired, a new enrollment or license, before the master of such ship or vessel shall first render a true account to the collector, of the number of seamen, and the time they have severally been employed on board such ship or vessel, during the continuance of the license which has so expired, and pay to such collector twenty cents per month for every month such seamen have been severally employed as aforesaid ; which sum the said master is hereby authorized to retain out of the wages of such seamen. And if any such master shall render a false account of the number of men, and the length of time they have severally been employed, as is herein required, he shall forfeit and pay one hundred dollars.
It is also to be noted that our beloved Washington Post jumps on Rick Ungar’s bandwagon with an article titled Newsflash:Founders favored "government run health care" by Greg Sargent, , 01/20/2011
And this propagandist, similar to Rick Ungar, likewise fails to note the act was not directed at “government run health care“,but rather, how to deal with the health care needs of sailors employed on ships licensed by the United States engaged in commerce among the States and with foreign nations . . . a specific subject matter which Congress was granted authority over.
And instead of consulting “a professor of history who specializes in the early republic” Greg Sargent ought to have consulted our founding fathers to determine their intentions as documented in the debates creating the act. But heck, why quote the documented intentions and beliefs under whichthe Act was adopted when one can get a “professor” to weave a tale by association to give credibility to a fraud now being perpetrated upon the American People? The fraud being, that Congress has been granted power to regulate the American People’s decisions and choices regarding their health care needs.
JWKLast edited by johnwk; 05-10-2017 at 09:26 AM.
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