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  1. #21
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReformUSA2012 View Post
    Judy, while I understand where your coming from in truth most pro abortion people actually support a 20-24 week abortion ban. Its only a small number that is completely anti abortion and a small number that is for abortion up to delivery date. But to many if they can't decide in the first 5-6 months to get an abortion then that's their problem. At 5-6 months there is lots of kicking and movement going on which to many they see as life and find it acceptable to have some restrictions of that sort. I've been pro choice for years as have many of my friends and we have had this discussion many times and people seem to think having a cut off date is acceptable and even good.

    With that said going any farther then that won't be allowed especially by women. That ship has long sailed and the only bit that is left is limiting 3rd trimester abortions unless mother's life is in danger.
    The 20 week fetus laws and bills put it in the second trimester. The US Supreme Court put it in the states rights at 24 weeks which is the third trimester.

    Pregnancy and childbirth always puts the woman's life in danger.

    Its only a small number that is completely anti abortion and a small number that is for abortion up to delivery date. But to many if they can't decide in the first 5-6 months to get an abortion then that's their problem.
    Is that really what you and your friends want to tell a 13 year old girl with an unwanted pregnancy she wants to terminate but who doesn't want to tell her parents or whose parents won't give her the money to pay for an abortion?

    Is that really what you and your friends want to tell a 19 year old girl with an unwanted pregnancy who already works 2 jobs to support her 3 kids she already has?

    Is that really what you and your friends want to tell US taxpayers who pay for most of these childbirths but are denied the common sense to pay for abortions when a financial need exists?

    And they want the States and federal government to have the power to create these anomalies over an issue that only impacts less than .01% of unwanted pregnancies that for a variety of reasons are terminated in the third trimester, less than 100 a year?

    Of the 1.6 million abortions performed in the U.S. each year, 91 percent are performed during the first trimester (12 or fewer weeks' gestation); 9 percent are performed in the second trimester (24 or fewer weeks' gestation); and only about 100 are performed in the third trimester (more than 24 weeks' gestation), approximately .01 percent of all abortions performed.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2003/06...tatistics.html

    Do they really want to allow the government the power to dictate such a personal, private decision that in more cases than not would become a taxpayers burden, that would risk the woman's life even though a bunch of bureaucrats right out of Rosemary's Baby said it wouldn't, that forces a girl or woman to go through that process that will change her life in ways she doesn't want or need or can stomach or tolerate for the rest of her life?

    In your next discussion on the topic, you might mention that it's always "their problem" until it becomes yours.

    But you're right on the fact that women won't tolerate it. It's why Mitt Romney lost in 2012. It's why Trump could have otherwise won in 2016. They're big boys. It was their choice to throw an election over the issue of a girl or woman's right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy versus the power of any government to force her into childbirth against her will. What next? Dungeons where they stage and detain them for 6 months? Tracking devices during the pregnancy to ensure they don't escape to a state or another country where they can have the procedure? Murder charges?

    Regardless of public opinion on the subject of the whens and under what circumstances, the people behind this movement are not the type of people who should have the power over our governments, let alone the people of the United States, least of all pregnant girls or women who for whatever reason do not want to be forced into childbirth against their will, who are the only ones qualified to decide the whens and circumstances of having a baby or not having one, precisely because at that point in time, it is "their problem", and only theirs to solve.
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  2. #22
    MW
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    Judy wrote:

    Is that really what you and your friends want to tell a 13 year old girl with an unwanted pregnancy she wants to terminate but who doesn't want to tell her parents or whose parents won't give her the money to pay for an abortion?
    At 13 years of age the parents better darn well be involved!!! Someone giving my 13 year old daughter an abortion without my approval better expect a lawsuit! A child should never have the right to make such a decision without parental involvement and anyone that thinks otherwise is not thinking clearly (IMO).

    But you're right on the fact that women won't tolerate it. It's why Mitt Romney lost in 2012.
    Pure speculation!

    Let me ask you a question, Judy. In your opinion, when does an unborn baby have rights? From what I can tell your all about the support of abortion up until delivery. Am I misreading you or are you against abortion when a baby has a chance, however small, of surviving outside the womb?
    Last edited by MW; 07-03-2015 at 01:04 AM.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MW View Post
    Judy wrote: At 13 years of age the parents better darn well be involved!!! Someone giving my 13 year old daughter an abortion without my approval better expect a lawsuit! A child should never have the right to make such a decision without parental involvement and anyone that thinks otherwise is not thinking clearly (IMO). Pure speculation! Let me ask you a question, Judy. In your opinion, when does an unborn baby have rights? From what I can tell your all about the support of abortion up until delivery. Am I misreading you or are you against abortion when a baby has a chance, however small, of surviving outside the womb?
    It's up to your daughter to involve you not the government. If she doesn't want you involved, then that is her right not to do so. And if the procedure was performed properly, what would be your standing in the matter for a lawsuit? Why instead wouldn't you be filing statutory rape charges against the boy or man who raped her? I'm not for or against abortion. I'm Pro-Choice, which means I am for the pregnant girl or woman and whatever decision she wants to make regarding having a baby. It's her life first, whatever decision she makes, whenever she makes it, is what I support, whether I agree with her timing or not is irrelevant. Right after the girl's or woman's carrying it.
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  4. #24
    MW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    It's up to your daughter to involve you not the government. If she doesn't want you involved, then that is her right not to do so. And if the procedure was performed properly, what would be your standing in the matter for a lawsuit? Why instead wouldn't you be filing statutory rape charges against the boy or man who raped her? I'm not for or against abortion. I'm Pro-Choice, which means I am for the pregnant girl or woman and whatever decision she wants to make regarding having a baby. It's her life first, whatever decision she makes, whenever she makes it, is what I support, whether I agree with her timing or not is irrelevant. Right after the girl's or woman's carrying it.
    That's not necessarily true. The requirement that minors get parental consent before having an abortion vary by state. Some states require parental consent for women under the age of 18 with exceptions for abuse, incest or neglect. I'll grant you that a handful of states have no parental consent requirement, but most do. In those handful of states the doctor still has the discretion on whether to notify parents of a planned abortion. In conclusion, no the minor child does not always have the right to decide. For goodness sake, we're talking about a 13 year old here! Heck, at that age she is probably having a difficult time deciding which shirt and pair of socks she wants to wear to school on any given day.

    Oh, and that was a very smooth dodge on my specific question of when you feel an unborn child has rights. No, i'd say it's not an irrelevant question, not to the child anyway.

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  5. #25
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MW View Post
    That's not necessarily true. The requirement that minors get parental consent before having an abortion vary by state. Some states require parental consent for women under the age of 18 with exceptions for abuse, incest or neglect. I'll grant you that a handful of states have no parental consent requirement, but most do. In those handful of states the doctor still has the discretion on whether to notify parents of a planned abortion. In conclusion, no the minor child does not always have the right to decide. For goodness sake, we're talking about a 13 year old here! Heck, at that age she is probably having a difficult time deciding which shirt and pair of socks she wants to wear to school on any given day.

    Oh, and that was a very smooth dodge on my specific question of when you feel an unborn child has rights. No, i'd say it's not an irrelevant question, not to the child anyway.
    What I said was my opinion, not stating recent laws that have made it more difficult for girls to obtain an abortion.

    A pregnant 13 year old is a child whose parents have neglected her, who haven't protected her, and who at that point have no right to involve themselves in the outcome of their own negligence without her consent. The states who have passed these laws didn't do this to protect the child, they did it to protect their own ideology against girls and women and extend this abuse of children to neglectful parents.

    Since you have a daughter, I'm surprised I would have to be explaining this to you.
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  6. #26
    MW
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    Judy wrote:

    Since you have a daughter, I'm surprised I would have to be explaining this to you.
    All three of my daughters are adults. Actually, it was I that explained it to you.

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" ** Edmund Burke**

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  7. #27
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    "Oh, and that was a very smooth dodge on my specific question of when you feel an unborn child has rights. No, i'd say it's not an irrelevant question, not to the child anyway." -- MW

    I told you it was right after the girl's or woman's carrying it.

    You asked me another question about whether I supported abortion right up to delivery, and I said my opinion on that is irrelevant. What I personally might choose to do is irrelevant to what someone else would want or need to do. After all, that would be "pure speculation".
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MW View Post
    Judy wrote:



    All three of my daughters are adults. Actually, it was I that explained it to you.
    What did you explain to me?
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    "A pregnant 13 year old is a child whose parents have neglected her, who haven't protected her, and who at that point have no right to involve themselves in the outcome of their own negligence without her consent. The states who have passed these laws didn't do this to protect the child, they did it to protect their own ideology against girls and women and extend this abuse of children to neglectful parents." -- Judy

    This is what I was explaining to you.
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  10. #30
    MW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    "A pregnant 13 year old is a child whose parents have neglected her, who haven't protected her, and who at that point have no right to involve themselves in the outcome of their own negligence without her consent. The states who have passed these laws didn't do this to protect the child, they did it to protect their own ideology against girls and women and extend this abuse of children to neglectful parents." -- Judy

    This is what I was explaining to you.
    So are you assuming that a 13 year old child is neglected because she got pregnant?
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