Thread: Chavez snubs US

Footnote.

The reason Bush has treated Chavez this way has all been over the FTAA, Free Trade Agreement of the Americas. Bush thought he had it in the bag. Chavez along with Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay and Uraguay ... stopped it dead in its tracks.

Bush was apparently hoping that he could damage Chavez politically if not physically ... and help someone else win the election which would have given Bush 2 years to work on someone new to get them to agree to the FTAA.

Chavez has a 6 year term.

Bush will not now be able to complete the Free Trade Agreement of the Americas and is now sending his people in to try to "make nice" with Chavez.

Chavez will come around and have good diplomatic relations with our country ... but our representatives will have to eat a little crow and learn how to negotiate with Chavez because shunning him, trying to overthrow him, suggesting he should be assassinated, renegging on aircraft parts deals for military aircraft we sold his country, and generally villainizing this person ... is not how to achieve it.

Judy...any chance you've been handling unknown substances? Just kidding.

I am not staying loyal on position alone. Here is what I wrote in another discussion group:

What I am saying is that we need to vote properly and not humiliate ourselves by being fodder for the media. We are making fools out of ourselves... Why draw attention to the fact that you chose someone who makes bad choices? Even though everyone is responsible for their own choices, it is still a reflection on you. I think that we should take our lumps, lie low and vote better the next time. I am tired of being the laughing stock of the world. Besides, all of this talk about a timeline in Iraq just gives the enemy more incentive to stick with the battle knowing that we are going to bail out, and it makes us look weak.

http://www.einnews.com/venezuela/newsfeed-opec

I found this about Venezuela and OPEC.

Haven't taken time to read it all. Will later.

Originally Posted by Neese

Judy...any chance you've been handling unknown substances? Just kidding.

I am not staying loyal on position alone. Here is what I wrote in another discussion group:

[quote:47d7t4oy]What I am saying is that we need to vote properly and not humiliate ourselves by being fodder for the media. We are making fools out of ourselves... Why draw attention to the fact that you chose someone who makes bad choices? Even though everyone is responsible for their own choices, it is still a reflection on you. I think that we should take our lumps, lie low and vote better the next time. I am tired of being the laughing stock of the world. Besides, all of this talk about a timeline in Iraq just gives the enemy more incentive to stick with the battle knowing that we are going to bail out, and it makes us look weak.

[/quote:47d7t4oy]

Well, neese, I suppose that's one way to look at it .. but consider this. The people in these other countries know more about the true condition of the United States than most Americans.

They know our plight from illegal immigration to bad trade deals to the ... war in Iraq ... better than we do.

Putting on a "stiff upper lip" and "taking our lumps" make us look stupid and silly, in my view. We want countries to respect the United States because of what we as Americans believe and what we a Americans do. Sure, the President of the United States reflects or is supposed to reflect the ideals, beliefs, and attitudes of the American People. When that person doesn't, then you have to distance. Most organizations would have already fired him, but for some reason this has not yet occurred.

We can put up with him ... but to support him when his policies are wrong ... well that just leads the people of other nations to think that we are like him when nothing could be further from the truth.

You'll notice how careful Chavez was in his announcement to address the "government of the United States" as separate from the United States and the American People.

Bush is wrong on immigration; Bush is wrong on free trade policies; Bush is wrong in Iraq and everything he does.

Those are the facts. To support such a President when his policies are wrong ... doesn't make any sense to this American.

We have over 300,000,000 Americans over half of them would have done a better job for the American People during the pat 6 years than Bush has done.

Our dirty linen has been exposed in Iraq, Afghanistan and in New Orleans. There is no reason for any leader of any nation to respect our President and there is no reason for any American to do so either.

On this my friend, we'll just have to agree to disagree. But take it from someone whose family has been here a long long long time ... opposing people that are hurting your country is not a bad thing ... it's a good thing ... and the only way to protect your nation from the harm those people impose.

What the heck does this have to do with the price of apples?

We might be up to our throats but these dipwads are already drowning in the following!

They know our plight from illegal immigration to bad trade deals to the ... war in Iraq ... better than we do.

Have to do a lot better than that, Judy.

.

You'll notice how careful Chavez was in his announcement to address the "government of the United States" as separate from the United States and the American People.

That's because Chavez is well-versed in the ideology of Socialist/Communist revolution. The enemy is always "the government" and the heroes are "the workers" or "the people." What he is trying to do is to sow the seeds of Socialist revolution, and he's going about it by the book.

Of course, the one thing that we have learned from the Communists and Socialists over the last century is that the government is always evil and the people are always the good and innocent vicitms UNTIL after the revolution succeeds. Then the government is the beneficient god of the people, and the people are a potentially treasonous lot to be monitored and suppressed at all costs for their own good.

Man, it's hard to believe that ANYONE who lived through the Cold War doesn't recognize textbook Socialist propaganda!

Of course it's socialist propaganda. But socialist propaganda works in countries like Venezuela where so many people have been failed by years of "capitalism". This country's average per capita wage is $6,400 a year. When capitalism doesn't work that creates the avenue through popular support for social programs and that's where Chavez is going with a mix of the two systems.

Originally Posted by 2ndamendsis

What the heck does this have to do with the price of apples?

We might be up to our throats but these dipwads are already drowning in the following!
[quote:3j683ap8]They know our plight from illegal immigration to bad trade deals to the ... war in Iraq ... better than we do.

Have to do a lot better than that, Judy.

.

[/quote:3j683ap8]

Okay. Within the past 2 years the world has watched the US defy the UN, propagandize a coalition, barge into Iraq, throw out a regime our government didn't like, and then fail in Iraq not militarily that victory came easily ... but totally. When you dare to tell others you know best; you've got the right; you've got the power ... and at the great risk, cost and sacrifice of others you achieved nothing but to prove you didn't know best and weren't right and as a result people died, property was destroyed, and a secular nation became a religious Islamic theocracy ... there is no greater failure economically, morally or politically than the George W Bush War in Iraq. And the world has watched it for almost 4 years.

This was a failure of our system. This was a terrible failure for democracy. Iraq and Afghanistan are Theocracies.. worse than a socialist country, worse than a communist country. A religious Theocracy is a Tyranny of the worst possible kind of government.

People watched around the world and in the Middle East ... watching Afghanistan and Iraq. Would democracy prevail? As the people watched, they wanted democracy in the Middle East. And were counting on the Americans to make that happen. But we failed because this President failed and he failed because he had no mission, he had no plan, he had no vision and he had no capability.

People watched our capitalistic system on television durng Katrina. They watched a city like New Orleans drowning live on TV while our President spoke to the Navy in San Diego about his War in Iraq; while he rode bikes with Lance Armstrong at the ranch; while he played guitar with Lance; while he flew in his fancy Air Force One over the affected area; while he got all gussied up for a Rose Garden Press Conference; while he got Exxon and the oil boys all set-up with access to our Strategic Reserve; while he studied the Disaster Relief Bill and made sure there was a ton of money in it for Brother Jeb; while he met with the American Red Cross about all the money they would be receiving; while he met with his Dad and Clinton to set up their role to represent the Katrina Disaster Relief Fund ... and then after all his family, funds, buddies, oil barons and Olympic Stars were taken care of .... FIVE DAYS after Katrina hit New Orleans ... he sent in the 82nd Airborne and rescued 42,000 people in less than 24 hours that had suffered for FIVE DAYS ... starving, crying, suffering ... for too long for some and they died right before our eyes, live on worldwide TV.

The whole world saw our priorities through the actions of our President.

The whole world saw our priorities through the eyes of the poor people they saw on television waiting for help in New Orleans.

Never in their wildest imaginations ... nor most of ours .... was what they were watching unfold even possible in the United States let alone right there on worldwide television exposed.

No one could watch the news that week and not see the disparities in our country and the attitude that creates them. It was right there that week for all to see. LIVE. The people in New Orleans didn't matter to anyone in the US Government including the President of the United States and the very attitude that made these people wait for 5 days for rescue is the same attitude that caused them to be stuck there in poverty to begin with.

I have never been as humiliated as an American Citizen as I was that week. I'll never forgive this President for many things but most of all his choices of actions that week. The world saw our weakness. Our President exposed it for 5 solid days on worldwide television.

The countries that are emerging, finding their way and choosing their systems all saw that happen in America that week. Our system was judged by many that week as they watched in horror as we did. They not only saw our poverty in our capitalistic economy ... they saw and continue to see to this day .... the disparaging attitudes that cause it to begin with.

The United States is facing a day of reckoning. And the American People who like me want to save our democracy and our capitalistic society are going to have to face the fact that we are weak because we let our leaders sell out our nation and our people.

These countries have people who have access to our economic data, they receive UN reports, international reports of all kinds. They know our debt; they know our obligations; they know our declining industrial base; they know our technology standing ... they know everything. We are the example and they have been studying us for years.

We are not solid economically and we have to face that fact and fix it.

We are not solid socially and we have to face that fact and fix it.

We are not solid politically and we have to face that fact and fix it.

And denying it or being smirky with me won't fix it.

We have to face the hard cold reality of our situation and then do the work to fix it.

Originally Posted by Judy

Of course it's socialist propaganda. But socialist propaganda works in countries like Venezuela where so many people have been failed by years of "capitalism". This country's average per capita wage is $6,400 a year. When capitalism doesn't work that creates the avenue through popular support for social programs and that's where Chavez is going with a mix of the two systems.

So are you a socialist?

Also, I would suggest that it is not capitalism that failed the Venezuelans. It was corruption. Contrary to what you or anyone may suggest, corruption is not an insurmountable or even unavoidable element of capitalism. Venezuela's problem was more related to the fact that, unlike America, which was originally founded by freeholding farmers and mmerchants, Venezuela was founded with a majority who were dependent peasants. They were ill prepared to move into open competition because a privileged elite was able to keep the poor from having upward mobility.

The problem with capitalism is not capitalism as such. It is the fact that a free market works only in a truly free society. Imposing capitalism on a dependent citizenry will always be problematic, which is why the Russians have had so much difficulty transitioning out of Communism. The only people there who had the means to exploit a free market were former politburo and KGB types and gangsters. Fortunately, the average Russian is very well educated, and so this is in fact a transitional period (unless Putin keeps tightening the screws) and not a long-term failure.

CrocketsGhost Wrote:

So are you a socialist?

Also, I would suggest that it is not capitalism that failed the Venezuelans. It was corruption. Contrary to what you or anyone may suggest, corruption is not an insurmountable or even unavoidable element of capitalism. Venezuela's problem was more related to the fact that, unlike America, which was originally founded by freeholding farmers and mmerchants, Venezuela was founded with a majority who were dependent peasants. They were ill prepared to move into open competition because a privileged elite was able to keep the poor from having upward mobility.

The problem with capitalism is not capitalism as such. It is the fact that a free market works only in a truly free society. Imposing capitalism on a dependent citizenry will always be problematic, which is why the Russians have had so much difficulty transitioning out of Communism. The only people there who had the means to exploit a free market were former politburo and KGB types and gangsters. Fortunately, the average Russian is very well educated, and so this is in fact a transitional period (unless Putin keeps tightening the screws) and not a long-term failure.

No, I am not a socialist. Why would you think so?

I understand that countries that try to survive on capitalistic economies often fail because the rules of their game either aren't followed (corruption) or the rules themselves haven't addressed the needs and characteristics of the economy's society fairly (inequities). If the society doesn't have a happy balance, then the lower end of the strata will force change in the system to create that balance either through new policies, a new system or a combination of both.

Take the United States ... we presently have 37,000,000 Americans on some type of public assistance program (socialism) and another 35,000,000 Seniors on a national retirement system (socialism) so 72,000,000 Americans are surviving through social programs that are socialistic by any definition of socialism.

And based on present trends, both groups are the growth groups of our population.

The Democrats are in office and in control of the US Congress. There is a high probability that a Democrat will win the White House in 2008. This means that there is a very high probability that even more social programs will evolve in the United States over the next 6 to 10 years.

And as result even more Americans and illegals and legal residents will be tapped into and dependent upon some type of social program than ever before in our history. It's possible that a form of socialized medicine will rvolve due to the 47,000,000 Americans who can not presently afford health insurance or medical care and are America's "uninsured".

Add this group to the existing 72,000,000 and you have well over one-third of our nation that is dependent in some fashion if not completely upon the state for minimum survival.

And that is in the most successful capitalistic nation on earth.

I am a true capitalist that understands the rules of the game that are required to maintain a capitalist economy. What has happened in recent years is that too many involved in our business sectors with access to the US Congress either do not understand the consequences of their actions or do and are willing to sacrifice our system to make money for themselves.

The consequence is growng socialism everywhere except in communist nations which are like China using some minimal form of caplitalism to gain control of our markets.

Policies in a successful capitalistic society have to be written to ensure the success of the bottom not the top. A capitalistic economy is a trickle up not a trickle down scenario. Reagan understood it but had it upside down and they teased him about his VooDoo Economics.

The revenues flow in from the work at the bottom and then trickle up to craete profits and earnings not the other way around.

With regard to tax policy, the less tax on those profits and earnings the more our economy will see trickle back down into the system through new investments. But the primary objective of a government's policy and legislations is protection of the bottom strata which is the base of the economy and the foundation of the society. If you ignore it, if you trick it into poverty, if you betray it .... it will rise up against the system in the form of socialism. The larger that bottom strata is, the more powerful the force of socialism.

We are in a very precarious situation with a growing bottom strata with a huge portion of that strata on public assistance and it is being added to deliberately, on purpose, every day through job loss from free trade agreements and new population through illegal immigration ... this bottom strata is growing at an alarming rate every day. These are people who need jobs and our economy has none to offer.

Unless we get those jobs back into the United States for our workers and stop this illegal population growth, then this growth in the bottom strata is irreversible and our nation will be longer be sustainable as a capitalistic nation.

There are four simple tasks required to maintain a capitalistic economy in a nation as large as the United States:

1. job creation within the national boundary

2. controlled population within the national boundary

3. market wages and benefits within the national boundary

4. protected markets within the national boundary

Our government failed at all 4 which is why we are in the situation we're in with no signs of improvement.

If you are afraid of socialism, then you need to work on these 4 items because without them ... the US is bound to become a very socialist nation. We would never become a totally socialist country where our government actually owns businesses, but most of our citizens will be reliant upon social programs to survive.

And that is what is planned. Globalism is marxism. I laugh when I hear the free traders talk about "free market". Nope. That is not what is happening. These are very controlled regulated markets established by the Free Trade Agreement documents to achieve an economic parity among nations by robbing the Americans to slightly enrich the poor of other countries while grossly over-enriching the small class of world elites that own major interests in these muti-national companies.

If you hate the idea of "socialism", then you need to work against Free Trade Agreements, Globalism along with Illegal Immigration because that is the planned result for the masses of these three phenomena with a small top echelon of "globalists" running and manipulating the world population for the accumulation of extreme unprecedented power and wealth.

But, I'm sure you knew that already.