Thread: Chavez snubs US

I have heard just about enough of the blame game. Personal accountability. That is a phrase you don't hear enough about these days. For all of the people who are blaming others, take a look around. For the people in Iraq...step up to the plate and help yourself...For the people affected by Hurricane Katrina...help yourself. Stop looking for people to do the job that you should be doing for yourself. Help will only get you so far and then you have to do it on your own. For example: if you live below sea level, the thought has got to cross your mind to have a back up plan and to have some supplies. If nothing else, keep water on hand, you can go a month without food. Secondly, there was an evacuation warning, which many healthy and capable people did not heed. I have heard every excuse in the book why those people could not leave. No car, no money, no place to go, no this, no that... Let me tell you something, I saw cars all over that city and they were just sitting there, unused. I heard stories about men raping and stealing, and God knows what else. If you have the energy for that, you can walk out of town on your own. I saw people walking for miles in sludge to get to higher ground. If you can walk in sludge, then you can walk on a clean road before the storm hits. I saw people walking around with a cigarette in one hand and booze in the other. If you can afford such luxuries in life, you can afford a ride out of town. I am not buying the whole sob story about how helpless these people were. Yes, there were some people who truly were helpless, like the elderly, people in hospitals, or the sick who were not able to escape, and I am sorry for them, because they were truly helpless. Do you know who killed the helpless people? I'll tell you who. It was the healthy people capable of leaving their ill fated city, but chose not to. It was impossible to rescue the quantity of people that needed help, and in a timely manner. When you make excuses for people who can help themselves, you enable them to become a pathetic part of society. Few people want to take accountability for themselves anymore. It is easier to be lazy, claim that you are a victim and collect the freebies. Then, when everything is said and done, they throw in a lawsuit to boot.That may be okay in your opinion, but it is not okay with me. My parents taught me to be honest and hard working, to have respect for others and gosh darn it, to have personal accountability. My life hasn't always been easy but I never looked for a hand out, and I certainly did not blame anyone for my poor choices. What did many of those people do with the money they received? Did they buy necessities? Many did not, they squandered it on things they did not need. They blew it on things they never should have bought in the first place. Remember when they evacuated "the victims" and took them to Houston, the city that welcomed them with open arms? What happened there? Oh yeah, the crime rate went up. What a shocker! What happened after President Bush was voted into office for a second term? That is right...instead of saying well gosh, we voted him in twice, the good people of the United States are blaming him for everything. Yes, he is partially to blame, but so are we. He did not magically appear in the White House, we voted him in. PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY, folks, personal accountability. Take your lumps and move on. And Judy, stop protecting ill mannered people, you are part of the problem.

Originally Posted by Judy

CrocketsGhost Wrote:

So are you a socialist?

Also, I would suggest that it is not capitalism that failed the Venezuelans. It was corruption. Contrary to what you or anyone may suggest, corruption is not an insurmountable or even unavoidable element of capitalism. Venezuela's problem was more related to the fact that, unlike America, which was originally founded by freeholding farmers and mmerchants, Venezuela was founded with a majority who were dependent peasants. They were ill prepared to move into open competition because a privileged elite was able to keep the poor from having upward mobility.

The problem with capitalism is not capitalism as such. It is the fact that a free market works only in a truly free society. Imposing capitalism on a dependent citizenry will always be problematic, which is why the Russians have had so much difficulty transitioning out of Communism. The only people there who had the means to exploit a free market were former politburo and KGB types and gangsters. Fortunately, the average Russian is very well educated, and so this is in fact a transitional period (unless Putin keeps tightening the screws) and not a long-term failure.

No, I am not a socialist. Why would you think so?

I understand that countries that try to survive on capitalistic economies often fail because the rules of their game either aren't followed (corruption) or the rules themselves haven't addressed the needs and characteristics of the economy's society fairly (inequities). If the society doesn't have a happy balance, then the lower end of the strata will force change in the system to create that balance either through new policies, a new system or a combination of both.

Take the United States ... we presently have 37,000,000 Americans on some type of public assistance program (socialism) and another 35,000,000 Seniors on a national retirement system (socialism) so 72,000,000 Americans are surviving through social programs that are socialistic by any definition of socialism.

And based on present trends, both groups are the growth groups of our population.

The Democrats are in office and in control of the US Congress. There is a high probability that a Democrat will win the White House in 2008. This means that there is a very high probability that even more social programs will evolve in the United States over the next 6 to 10 years.

And as result even more Americans and illegals and legal residents will be tapped into and dependent upon some type of social program than ever before in our history. It's possible that a form of socialized medicine will rvolve due to the 47,000,000 Americans who can not presently afford health insurance or medical care and are America's "uninsured".

Add this group to the existing 72,000,000 and you have well over one-third of our nation that is dependent in some fashion if not completely upon the state for minimum survival.

And that is in the most successful capitalistic nation on earth.

I am a true capitalist that understands the rules of the game that are required to maintain a capitalist economy. What has happened in recent years is that too many involved in our business sectors with access to the US Congress either do not understand the consequences of their actions or do and are willing to sacrifice our system to make money for themselves.

The consequence is growng socialism everywhere except in communist nations which are like China using some minimal form of caplitalism to gain control of our markets.

Policies in a successful capitalistic society have to be written to ensure the success of the bottom not the top. A capitalistic economy is a trickle up not a trickle down scenario. Reagan understood it but had it upside down and they teased him about his VooDoo Economics.

The revenues flow in from the work at the bottom and then trickle up to craete profits and earnings not the other way around.

With regard to tax policy, the less tax on those profits and earnings the more our economy will see trickle back down into the system through new investments. But the primary objective of a government's policy and legislations is protection of the bottom strata which is the base of the economy and the foundation of the society. If you ignore it, if you trick it into poverty, if you betray it .... it will rise up against the system in the form of socialism. The larger that bottom strata is, the more powerful the force of socialism.

We are in a very precarious situation with a growing bottom strata with a huge portion of that strata on public assistance and it is being added to deliberately, on purpose, every day through job loss from free trade agreements and new population through illegal immigration ... this bottom strata is growing at an alarming rate every day. These are people who need jobs and our economy has none to offer.

Unless we get those jobs back into the United States for our workers and stop this illegal population growth, then this growth in the bottom strata is irreversible and our nation will be longer be sustainable as a capitalistic nation.

There are four simple tasks required to maintain a capitalistic economy in a nation as large as the United States:

1. job creation within the national boundary

2. controlled population within the national boundary

3. market wages and benefits within the national boundary

4. protected markets within the national boundary

Our government failed at all 4 which is why we are in the situation we're in with no signs of improvement.

If you are afraid of socialism, then you need to work on these 4 items because without them ... the US is bound to become a very socialist nation. We would never become a totally socialist country where our government actually owns businesses, but most of our citizens will be reliant upon social programs to survive.

And that is what is planned. Globalism is marxism. I laugh when I hear the free traders talk about "free market". Nope. That is not what is happening. These are very controlled regulated markets established by the Free Trade Agreement documents to achieve an economic parity among nations by robbing the Americans to slightly enrich the poor of other countries while grossly over-enriching the small class of world elites that own major interests in these muti-national companies.

If you hate the idea of "socialism", then you need to work against Free Trade Agreements, Globalism along with Illegal Immigration because that is the planned result for the masses of these three phenomena with a small top echelon of "globalists" running and manipulating the world population for the accumulation of extreme unprecedented power and wealth.

But, I'm sure you knew that already.

Capitalism has not necessitated social programs in this country. To the contrary, the massive tax burden of the increasing Socialism in America has CREATED the dependents you describe. You're putting the cart before the horse.

CrocketsGhost:

Capitalism has not necessitated social programs in this country. To the contrary, the massive tax burden of the increasing Socialism in America has CREATED the dependents you describe. You're putting the cart before the horse.

I agree 100% that the social programs were funded by the massive tax burden. But the social programs followed massive unemployment and underemployment.

Today, we still have a massive tax burden, growing social programs, declining jobs, unemployment much greater than is being reported becaue they aren't counting them, tremendous unemployment where people are working 50 to 60 hours a week and still need public assistance to survive, and a swelling population of needy people.

We need at least 15,000,000 new jobs today that pay at least $30,000 a year plus benefits for American Citizens to even begin to reduce the social programs. Next year we'll need 20,000,000. And the year after that 25,000,000 or more.

Neese, ... the highest crime rate in the United States is in St. Louis, Missouri ... not Houston, Texas .. not New Orleans ... not anywhere that these people whom I can tell you really really don't like were relocated to. Like I said ... the world saw it; the world formed it's own opinion; Americans cried watching it; Geraldo held babies and cried for someone to come save them; reporters were there; Ship from Fox News ... almost speechless by what he saw and observed ... none of them against Bush, none of them opposed to the President, all there pulling together to deal with and report a disaster that wasn't addressed. The Canadians had planes ready to fly medical supplies to New Orleans ... fueled, loaded and ready to enter US Air Space and land in New Orleans on Tuesday morning ... but they were denied entry into US Air Space by Condoleeza Rice...so they stayed home and watched people die on the overpass in their wheelchairs. My state and several others who are experienced in hurricane disasters had 400 medical teams packed, loaded and on the road to New Orleans within 24 hours after Katrina only to be stopped at the state line waiting for permits to enter the state of Louisiana which the doctors needed in order to administer aid ... that didn't come for almost 2 weeks.

No one was against Bush during Katrina. No one was against FEMA during Katrina. EVERYONE expected a "good show" from Bush and FEMA. Bush is a former Governor of Texas, experienced in Hurricane Disasters. But what we saw was the worst thing I've ever seen in America in my life.

You want to blame victims of Hurricane Disasters to try to pump up a President? Well .. it's a free country.

I know you know the truth, Judy. I wonder if your association with those that are trying to push impeachment has somehow influenced you to skew the facts. Or are you so frustrated, as the rest of us, that you're forgetting the truth. You're a much better researcher than that.

By all means, let's cozy up to the very organization who's goal is to damage if now destroy the USA............United Nations of Genocide & Theft.

Now, that's one hell of a plan you condone, JUDY.
Take knife and put it to our throats along with the rest of the cabals.

Not even going to touch the Chavez/communist connections. You're too smart and aware for this. And Capitalism? Judy, come on now. You already know that Capitalism has long been hijacked and it wasn't just bush.

As a matter of fact, you darn well know that bush is merely another one in the line of many who have wrought this deception. Stop blaming ONE person when you already have the facts about these people.

.

Originally Posted by Judy

CrocketsGhost:

Capitalism has not necessitated social programs in this country. To the contrary, the massive tax burden of the increasing Socialism in America has CREATED the dependents you describe. You're putting the cart before the horse.

I agree 100% that the social programs were funded by the massive tax burden. But the social programs followed massive unemployment and underemployment.

Today, we still have a massive tax burden, growing social programs, declining jobs, unemployment much greater than is being reported becaue they aren't counting them, tremendous unemployment where people are working 50 to 60 hours a week and still need public assistance to survive, and a swelling population of needy people.

We need at least 15,000,000 new jobs today that pay at least $30,000 a year plus benefits for American Citizens to even begin to reduce the social programs. Next year we'll need 20,000,000. And the year after that 25,000,000 or more...

Actually, your stats are only accurate if you assume that we must continue with this Socialist system. Eliminate the Socialist programs and their massive debt burden and allow the citizenry to invest for themselves and we won't need any of that nonsense. The jobs will create themselves and a much larger percentage of Americans will not have to work so many hours because their money will be working for them instead of for the government and the elitists it serves.

Originally Posted by 2ndamendsis

I know you know the truth, Judy. I wonder if your association with those that are trying to push impeachment has somehow influenced you to skew the facts. Or are you so frustrated, as the rest of us, that you're forgetting the truth. You're a much better researcher than that.

By all means, let's cozy up to the very organization who's goal is to damage if now destroy the USA............United Nations of Genocide & Theft.

Now, that's one hell of a plan you condone, JUDY.
Take knife and put it to our throats along with the rest of the cabals.

Not even going to touch the Chavez/communist connections. You're too smart and aware for this. And Capitalism? Judy, come on now. You already know that Capitalism has long been hijacked and it wasn't just bush.

As a matter of fact, you darn well know that bush is merely another one in the line of many who have wrought this deception. Stop blaming ONE person when you already have the facts about these people.

.

Creating 15,000,000 new jobs is "taking a knife and putting it to your throats along with the rest of the cabals"?

Wow ... What's up with you?

Capitalism has been hijacked? Absolutely ... And it wasn't just Bush? Absolutely it wasn't and I never EVER said otherwise. What's up with you?

"Stop blaming ONE person when you already have the facts about these people". Who is blaiming ONE person? We only have ONE President at a time. I consistently blame Bush and Cheney which are TWO persons. You want keep the ONE we've got and opine over the ones long gone? Okay ... now that's billiant ... why didn't I think of that. What's up with you?

"I wonder if your association with those that are trying to push impeachment has somehow influenced you to skew the facts". OMIGOD. I do not associate with anyone trying to impeach Bush ... I just push it on the forums and call the Congress demanding it and sign petitions when one pops up on my computer. What facts have I skewed? Has Bush not let more illegal aliens into the United States than any President ever? Has he not abandoned our laws and failed to prosecute employers having only prosecuted 10 in 6 years when Clinton averaged over 500 a year during his 8 years ... and he's a Globalist ... and by his 8 year he prosecuted 795 companies in one year? Has Bush not advanced the Free Trade Sell Out of the United States faster and harder than any President ever? Yes ... he has and those are documented irrefutable facts that cost Americans millions upon millions of lost jobs when they need net new jobs in the several million based upon the increases in Legal Immigration let alone the massive invason of illegals.

When you take American jobs out of the country you create poverty and poverty has risen 4 years in a row under this Administration. Without a job these people have no money. Without money you can't survive in the United States for more than 1 day. The only new jobs of any volume being created are in the retail sector which are low paying low skilled jobs with part-time hours that range from 20 to 35 hours a week ... and over a year's time ... most of these people are below the poverty line even when they can find or manage a second job ... and they still can't make ends meet.

When in addition to that you allow people from other countries to swarm into this nation and compete for those jobs .... what happens to our Americans? They either starve to death or seek public assistance.

Today, because of these two NO NO's, we have the largest welfare organization in the history of the United States ... completely unnecessary, all uncalled for, all the sole result of the Bush Administration's lay down on immigration coupled with a traitorous free trade agenda. If he has enforced our laws and protected our trade, we would have a very small number of people on public assistance...not because they can't a job but because of other reasons, disability, etc.

Right now in addition to all the Free Trade Agreements already signed and ratified, he's trying to finalize the agreement with South Korea, get the one with India ratified, and is about the finalize or has just finalized the one with Vietnam and on and on and on. So we'll lose more jobs, more investment, more industry, more benefits .... more presents and futures for American Citizens.

One day I'm going write a book about this situation and how we got here. I'm going to entitle it "No One Is Poor On Purpose ... Where Capitalism in the United States Went Wrong And How To Fix It."

It's okay with me if you all want to blame the UN, I'm sure they're partly responsible for something .. but if it shut down tomorrow, nothing would change in the United States. It's okay with me if you all want to blame Hugo Chavez and what he's doing in Venezuela ... I just wish someone would document what he's done to harm the United States or even one American Citizen by trying to feed, educate and provide medical services to Venezuelans. He could fall dead from a heart attack tomorrow and nothing would change in the United States.

Our problems are caused by what we do here; the foreign policy decisions we make here; the open borders that floods our nation here; the products that we allow to flow into our nation made by others outside our country.

We've lost the Democrats on Free Trade which they used to oppose but now seem ready to sign on to. Had they not changed they could have offset some of the job loss by refusing these new agreements ... but according to Lou tonight .... they're lined up apparently set to approve them ... probably the deal negotiated with the White House to get approval from the White House for their Shamnesty program on the worst possible terms.

Actually, your stats are only accurate if you assume that we must continue with this Socialist system. Eliminate the Socialist programs and their massive debt burden and allow the citizenry to invest for themselves and we won't need any of that nonsense. The jobs will create themselves and a much larger percentage of Americans will not have to work so many hours because their money will be working for them instead of for the government and the elitists it serves.

Really?

How exactly does that work? How does someone earning $10,000 a year benefit from not having access to MediCaid? In otherwords, lets take away MediCaid ... part of the "socialist system" ... now what? Are you saying that if we stop MediCaid ... a $30,000 a year job with health insurance will suddenly appear for the person earning $10,000 (minimum wage 2000 hours a year) a year now with no benefits?

Explain how that happens.

Thanks!

neese, crocketsghost and 2ndamendsis ... I noticed you all hadn't signed the petition to say no to guest worker program.

Thought you might have missed it.

So here it is for your convenience.

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=F ... c&p=256302

Originally Posted by Judy

Actually, your stats are only accurate if you assume that we must continue with this Socialist system. Eliminate the Socialist programs and their massive debt burden and allow the citizenry to invest for themselves and we won't need any of that nonsense. The jobs will create themselves and a much larger percentage of Americans will not have to work so many hours because their money will be working for them instead of for the government and the elitists it serves.

Really?

How exactly does that work? How does someone earning $10,000 a year benefit from not having access to MediCaid? In otherwords, lets take away MediCaid ... part of the "socialist system" ... now what? Are you saying that if we stop MediCaid ... a $30,000 a year job with health insurance will suddenly appear for the person earning $10,000 (minimum wage 2000 hours a year) a year now with no benefits?

Explain how that happens.

Thanks!

There's a reason those people are making only $10,000/year, and it's related to growth being sucked from the economy by the tax burden. To be honest though, it is very difficult for me to fathom anyone without a serious disability earning that little. We're talking about $27.50 a day with a five-day week. You can make more than that mowing lawns or cleaning toilets. A paper route pays at least that much.

I perceive that you have little grasp of macroeconomics. I don't believe that you even begin to comprehend how much wealth is being sucked from this nation by the government in the name of its creditors. Wealth creates wealth, it is not static. There's a thing called the sevenfold principle, that says that a dollar in circulation changes hands seven times on average in the course of a year. Each time it changes hands it either generates profit directly or indirectly when goods or services change hands. When that dollar is sucked from the economy, it generates nothing. It doesn't gain anything for the government because the government is so busy going into debt that it generates only more debt. It's a black hole.

I'll give you an example of how less taxes and less money to the government equates to more and better jobs. Let's take the example of a guy making $50,000/year. He probably has enough earnings to have a decent place to live and to buy a new car. But he probably can't affort a maid, lawn care, original artwork, etc. Reduce his tax burden by half and suddenly he's taking home about $20,000 more. He can probably afford some artwork or a maid or a lawn care service. A job that did not exist now does. What's more, if enough people get that sort of a boost to their take-home pay, there is competition for those jobs. the law of supply and demand drives up the wages.

Let's focus on the artisans. I know plenty of people in the art and entertainment fields. I have seen firsthand how good jobs for artisans and technicians dry up when the economy gets tight and the market then explodes when things get better. We're not just talking about low-end jobs here. We're talking about skilled jobs that may pay six figures. Those guys can then employ their own gardeners and maids.

Originally Posted by Judy

neese, crocketsghost and 2ndamendsis ... I noticed you all hadn't signed the petition to say no to guest worker program.

Thought you might have missed it.

So here it is for your convenience.

http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?name=F ... c&p=256302

I have signed endless petitions and I write letters several times per week. I did not sign this petition because I do not understand the relevance of the request for a repeal of the Davis-Bacon Act. That act was created to make sure that the government did not create unfair competition against the free market. Its relevance to the illegal immigration debate escapes me, but perhaps you could fill me in...