Thread: Chavez snubs US

That is why the tax is not uniform. It is not indexed against actual expenditures, but is rather predicated on presumptions that may or may not be accurate. So, again, using the presumption may well result in cases in which the alleged "rebate" exceeds to amount paid in. The reason I ridicule the idea of calling it a rebate is that a rebate cannot be more than the amount initially paid. What the welfare pimps have done is call a handout a "rebate" to make it more palatable.

Ooh boy .... first of all the tax is uniform as is the prebate. They are completely uniform. Second of all you are ridiculing a non-event. It's called a Prebate ... not a Rebate. It functions on the concept of a Rebate, but it is a Prebate ... an advance.

What we see in the table looks reasonable enough. The "predetermination" seems to have made reasonable assumptions, but the system can allow for the predetermination to change. If the government wants to buy more loyalty or more votes, all it has to do is change the way that it calculates the rebate amount. If the rebate increases (and who could say no to that?), the number of people who get "rebates" that exceed their actual pay-in increases. That means that more and more people will potentially and up being net recipients of government largesse rather than taxpayers. Socialism.

Nope. The government can't change it to buy votes. Only the Congress can change it with legislation. The Congress is US, the Will of the People. Buying votes by pleasing US is their constitutional duty.

That's not socialism. That representative government. The US Congress can reduce the 23% as we choose to reduce the size of our government or increase it should that be desired. The US Congress can increase the amount of the Prebate to be consistent with inflation and prices or reduce it for the same reason depending upon the Will of the People.

LOL. I take it you don't like welfare programs. Who does? No one I know, but the alternative is unacceptable. More than half our welfare program originates from low wages and lack of jobs. Solve those two problems and at least half of the social service programs we have could be eliminated and would phase out on their own. Ignore those two problems and get ready to fund the biggest welfare system in the world.

Originally Posted by Judy

That is why the tax is not uniform. It is not indexed against actual expenditures, but is rather predicated on presumptions that may or may not be accurate. So, again, using the presumption may well result in cases in which the alleged "rebate" exceeds to amount paid in. The reason I ridicule the idea of calling it a rebate is that a rebate cannot be more than the amount initially paid. What the welfare pimps have done is call a handout a "rebate" to make it more palatable.

Ooh boy .... first of all the tax is uniform as is the prebate. They are completely uniform. Second of all you are ridiculing a non-event. It's called a Prebate ... not a Rebate. It functions on the concept of a Rebate, but it is a Prebate ... an advance.

[quote:195wbhud]What we see in the table looks reasonable enough. The "predetermination" seems to have made reasonable assumptions, but the system can allow for the predetermination to change. If the government wants to buy more loyalty or more votes, all it has to do is change the way that it calculates the rebate amount. If the rebate increases (and who could say no to that?), the number of people who get "rebates" that exceed their actual pay-in increases. That means that more and more people will potentially and up being net recipients of government largesse rather than taxpayers. Socialism.

Nope. The government can't change it to buy votes. Only the Congress can change it with legislation. The Congress is US, the Will of the People. Buying votes by pleasing US is their constitutional duty.

That's not socialism. That representative government. The US Congress can reduce the 23% as we choose to reduce the size of our government or increase it should that be desired. The US Congress can increase the amount of the Prebate to be consistent with inflation and prices or reduce it for the same reason depending upon the Will of the People.

LOL. I take it you don't like welfare programs. Who does? No one I know, but the alternative is unacceptable. More than half our welfare program originates from low wages and lack of jobs. Solve those two problems and at least half of the social service programs we have could be eliminated and would phase out on their own. Ignore those two problems and get ready to fund the biggest welfare system in the world.

[/quote:195wbhud]
OMG!!!

Judy, do you actually believe this stuff you write?
Do you not understand simple mathematics and how the "rebate,""prebate," or whatever other BS euphimism you want to attach to it can easily be MORE than the tax paid in for amny people, making it a handout?

Do you honestly expect any rational human being to accept the absurd premise that the Congress is NOT part of the government? Good grief! Your arguments slip from absurdism to absolute farce sometimes. Seriously, if you want to have a reasonable argument you cannot make such unreasonable statements as that one. It's a real head-shaker.

CrocketsGhost

His vallainy was confirmed when he attempted a coup d'etat against the existing government in 1992 even though he had the support of a maximum of about 10% of the populace.

And then he was elected President by popular vote in 1998 ... right?

And then again in 2002?

And then again in 2006 with 63% of the popular vote?

With every international "eye" upon those elections.

I don't know ... guys .... seems like he's getting the job done down there.

The best way to keep our capitalism spreading throughout the world is for it to work. When it doesn't work ... and it hasn't worked in Venezuela ... then the government if it cares about its people has to step in and do something. I think it's unfortunate in Venezuela with all its natural resources that it hasn't worked ... the same in Mexico ... many of you call it the fault of corruption ... well ... that is a common disease within capitalism isn't it?

Why are we in the mess we're in?

Corruption.

Corruption is personal to the individuals in the government and your major economic players. There's no way to change it or fix it without getting them out of their roles and in retirement or jail.

How do you deal with a corrupted capitalist society without changing personnel?

I look forward to your thoughts.

CrocketsGhost ... when you refer to the government as you did in your post you stated that they could change it at any time to buy votes implying that the Executive Branch which is the Federal Government could do this willy nilly without our permission. Of course the US Congress, our Legislative Branch can legislate on our behalf any change we want any time we want it. This is the Will of the People which makes it perfectly Constitutional in the form of a voluntary non-forced national sales tax collected by the states. As We the People deem necessary or desired, the rate can be decreased or increased and the Prebate increased or decreased according to our Will.

And it is perfectly Constitutional because it is applied uniformly with equity and the whole thing is voluntary. You don't want a Prebate ... don't sign up for it.

And if you think you're impressing anyone with your rudeness, be assured you are not.

I don't know what you meant when you said "government" other than the Executive Branch because your statement if it included the US Congress would have been totally absurd.

But, you have just clarified that is exactly what you meant which is totally absurd. And this is all about a program that until this evening you may have heard about but didn't actually know anything about.

Okey, dokey.

And you are the guy aren't you that thinks the Davis-Bacon Act is a "check on our government to protect the free market"?

And you are the guy that uses the BEA per capita income but thinks it's average wages of working people ... right?

And you are the guy that called me dishonest for using the US Census Per Capita Income ... the one that's based upon actual income not modelled scenarios .... which is $10,000 less a year than what the US Department of Commerce uses to bubble, plump and distort our economy and lie to the American People about .... right?

And you are the guy who thinks a President of a South American country with a per capita income of $6,400 a year who decides to provide medical care with new Cuban doctors he bought with discounted oil; free education to the universities; financial aid to single mothers; and discounted food at the new state food stores ... is a "villain" ... right?

And you are the guy who thought the Fair Tax "rebate" was based upon actual expenditures requiring monitoring and receipts ... right?

This is so much fun, I hate to run ... but I've truly got some other things to do.

Later!!

Originally Posted by Judy

I don't understand neese. What is wrong with Chavez meeting with Putin to discuss military sales and energy deals? Chavez came to the US first and Bush rebuked him like I said. So then he traipses off to Russia. We're friends with Russia. Don't you remember? Bush looked into the eyes of Putin and saw his soul?

All Bush did was antagonize a friendly trading partner, rhetoric aside, and now instead of flying US military aircraft they'll spend $3 Billion with Russia instead of the United States. I know General Dynamics Fort Worth Division now part of Lockheed would have enjoyed that $3 Billion contract and so would their employees who certainly need the work.

If you want to dislike Venezuela, that's okay with me. I just don't understand why you would and still don't. But that's okay, too.

As to our nation, I think it most unwise not to have paid Venezuela more respect, honored our aircraft deal with them, encouraged more sales to them, and treated them like the friendly trading partner they are. It doesn't matter to me that Chavez doesn't like Bush. I don't like Bush either so I understand that. It matters very much to me that countries like our nation and hold us in high regard and treat our nation with respect if not our leader.

When Chavez does something to hurt my country or my fellow citizens, then my wrath will cloud up and rain all over him.

Did you read anything in my last post? Chavez does not like our government or our culture, and is making great efforts to deal with countries who have great anti-American sentiment. It appears that our President did not want to sell our soul to the devil for a few bucks. The risk outweighed benefits. Chavez has the right to deal with anyone he wants, and he has certainly done that. Politicians have to play a complex diplomatic game on a daily basis, and just because they compliment them on occasion, does not mean they like or even trust that person. Let's face it, we have friends like Vladamir Putin, and friends like Tony Blair. Which one would you want in your home? Hands down, I'll take Tony Blair. If you have been watching the news lately, you'll notice that Russia has a little radiation problem right now. Hardly a sign of trust. There may have been a soul there at some time, but I look into Putin's eyes and see Polonioum-210. We all have people in our life who we would rather not deal with, but for one reason or the other, we have to, and we choose to be diplomatic with them instead of causing a commotion. Why don't we respect Venezuela? Because respect is earned, and Mr Chavez certainly hasn't earned it. He tries very hard to gain attention by being obnoxious, and the US treats him accordingly. Please, do me a favor and take a trip to Venzuela. When you come back, let me know if your opinions have changed. Our President is very well traveled and has access to information that we will never know about. I am quite certain that he has a deeper understanding of the corruption in this world than we ever will. With that being said, Chavez does nothing to curtail the crime and corruption in his country, and as a result, the citizens of Venezuela suffer, as does their tourism. You see Judy, if this man had any intentions of doing right by his country, he would spend less time bashing our President, spend less time with corrupt leaders, and truly help clean up his own country so that the innocent people there can have a decent quality of life. Sometimes people get too hung up on statistics and the written word on paper. A true measure of someone's accomplishment is not by what they say, but by what they do, and the result of their actions. The most noble people that I know spend less time tooting their own horn, and silently helping those who need it. There are many unsung heroes in this world. Perhaps Mr Chavez should take note.

Oh, okay, neese. I guess you're right. It probably is better for the US that a country like Venezuela be better friends with Russia than US.

I just wouldn't have thought so.

And I did read your post. Even the links. Nothing there to change my mind, so I'll just take your word for it ... for now.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0818-08.htm


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Distributed to newspapers by Knight-Ridder/Tribune Information Services
Published on Wednesday August 18, 2004 by CommonDreams.org

Venezuela's Referendum Should Be a Wake-Up Call for the United States
by Mark Weisbrot

On a TV show in Caracas last week, supporters of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez picked up a six foot long baseball bat, taking up their baseball-loving leader's metaphor for the "home run" he would hit in the country's recall referendum. And on Sunday the ball was indeed knocked out of the park, with voters choosing to keep their president by 58 to 42 percent. It's the third time that Chavez has won the popular vote by a large margin, and it is time for the U.S. foreign policy establishment -- including the media -- to take another look at their scorecards.

The result has implications not only for Venezuela, but for the entire region. First, it shows that an anti-poverty agenda can be an electoral success in a country where the majority of people are poor -- as is true for most of Latin America. Millions of Venezuelans now have access for the first time to medical and dental care, education, literacy programs, microcredit loans, and even some land that has been redistributed in rural areas.

There is no doubt that these programs, as well as a sense of political inclusion that the country's impoverished majority did not have prior to Chavez' first election in 1998, were a huge factor in this election. It is true that recent oil price increases have made it easier for the Venezuelan government to keep its promises to share the country's oil wealth with the poor. But there are many Latin American countries that could afford similar improvements in the lives of poor people, if they were willing to make it a priority.

Of course social programs for the poor are not sustainable if the economy does not grow, and that has been the number one economic problem in Latin America for the past quarter-century. That is why Venezuela is just one of several countries where left-wing or populist candidates have won elections (Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador) or come very close (Bolivia) in the last few years. A long-term, unprecedented economic failure is driving these political developments.

From 1960-79 the region grew by 80 percent per capita, allowing for considerable improvement in overall living standards despite the worst income inequality in the world. From 1980-99, it grew by only 11 percent, or hardly at all; and for the first half of the current decade, an abysmal one percent for the whole five years. It is hard to comprehend the magnitude of this failure, which is worse than any comparable period, even including the Great Depression.

And since most of the post-1980s economic reforms -- liberalization of trade and investment flows, privatization, high interest rates and tight fiscal policies, even during recessions -- have carried "made in the USA" label, it is not surprising that the political revolt in Latin America has been against Washington's influence and the economic policies that are called "neo-liberalism" there.

So it is a mistake to try and demonize or isolate Chavez. He is only the most vocal representative of a broad swath of political leaders and social movements with the same view. Indeed, President Lula's Workers Party of Brazil, along with their largest trade union confederation and leading intellectuals and artists, took the unusual step of publicly expressing support for Chavez in the referendum.

And despite the disingenuous efforts of U.S. officials such as Roger Noriega and Otto Reich to paint Venezuela as another Cuba, the country is as free and democratic as any in Latin America -- as the world witnessed once again in this latest vote. Despite political polarization and class conflict, no reputable international human rights organization would argue that political rights or freedoms have deteriorated under the Chavez government, as compared with either previous governments or others in the Americas.

The Bush team supported a military coup against Chavez in 2002 as well as the recall effort -- which also received U.S. taxpayer dollars from the Congressionally-funded National Endowment for Democracy. But they were unusually quiet as the vote drew near. They do not want to promote any instability that might raise the price of gasoline between now and November 2. But whatever happens in our own election, we are going to need a new foreign policy towards Venezuela -- and the rest of Latin America.

Mark Weisbrot is co-Director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, in Washington, DC

???????

Sounds like he's making a difference as of 2004.

The result has implications not only for Venezuela, but for the entire region. First, it shows that an anti-poverty agenda can be an electoral success in a country where the majority of people are poor -- as is true for most of Latin America. Millions of Venezuelans now have access for the first time to medical and dental care, education, literacy programs, microcredit loans, and even some land that has been redistributed in rural areas.

What it actually shows is that communism is alive and well and once again, the poor and uneducated prefer to redistribute the wealth rather than fix the problems. Much like our own country.......redistribute someone else's wealth for a cradle to grave welfare society.

Never has a communist/socialist society survived for very long. Never has such a society been healthy, eventually imploding from the infection.
Creativity & ingenuity are barely existant in such a society, therefore making it even more of a necessity for government to "care for the populace."

.

Mark Weisbrot's opinions come from the far left, and are hardly credible.
http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?conten ... 0605280104

When you take a country like Venzuela who is so down and out that any assistance to the country's poor seems like an amazing feat. The people there feel so vulnerable, that I am sure they feel a sense of gratitude when in fact they should be outraged that there is so much money in their country, but only in a few hands. Token contributions are hardly something to be proud of. Shall I remind you of the token contributions of our own government by "increasing the number of Border Patrol agents" assigned, when they were pathetically low to begin with? How about that border fence that was approved, but no money approved, to build it? When we dig a little deeper, we find out the truth and hold our government accountable, don't we? The same should go for Hugo Chavez. What percentage of oil revenues go to the people of his country? I am sorry to say that even if you came up with some date, I would not trust it based on Chavez's credibility. I believe that Hugo Chavez was lagging in the polls initially. By some miracle, he won by a huge margin(?) This is called a voter scam:
http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?conten ... 0604251640

He has been in office since 1998 and is only making a difference by 2004? What has he been waiting for? Re-election? Wise up, sister, you're smarter than that.

Perhaps you can take the time to read the entire hearing.
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/in ... 8638_0.HTM

28–638PDF
2006
VENEZUELA:
TERRORISM HUB OF SOUTH AMERICA?

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM AND NONPROLIFERATION

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON
INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

JULY 13, 2006

Serial No. 109–189

Page 15.

I am also particularly concerned with reports that Venezuelan citizenship, identity and travel documents have continued to be relatively easy to obtain. Venezuelan identity documents have been distributed to foreigners from Middle Eastern nations including Syria, Pakistan, Egypt and Lebanon, making passports easy to obtain.

The question is, why would any government today in this 21st century not go out of its way to eliminate these kinds of issues and these kinds of questions as legitimate citizens not only of our hemisphere but of our world?
Today, I hope our witnesses will give us a deeper insight into these serious issues, provide us recommendations for future policy to deal with these concerns.

Again, Mr. Chairman, this is an extremely important hearing. Thank you for holding it today.

Mr. ROYCE. Thank you, Mr. Weller.

I will now go to Mr. Poe of Texas.

Mr. POE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The world faces real threats from terrorist groups like al-Qaeda, Hezbollah. And clear boundaries between nations that seek to fight terror and those that don't fight terror must be drawn. Over the last 5 years, many nations have proven to be great world allies in the global war on terror, but Venezuela is not one of them.