Thread: Chuck Norris bows to alleged fair tax (H.R.25)

See:

Time for T.E.A. and a Fair Tax
Chuck Norris
World Net Daily Exclusive Commentary
Posted: April 13, 2009
1:00 am Eastern


It is so sad to see Chuck Norris comment on our founding fathers feelings regarding federal taxation, and then go on to promote a tax plan, the alleged fairtax, which would establish the very kind of tax which our founding fathers object to.

Mr. Norris makes the claim:

The Fair Tax does away with all taxes and puts in place a single consumptive (fair) tax, which is the closest, practical, modern proposal to the taxation system favored by the founders.

But the truth is, the alleged fair tax does not propose to do away with “all taxesâ€

johnwk Thank you for posting this. This will lessen the concern of American Citizens being displaced from the workplace.

Nice post johnwk..!!

Like the formatting also..!

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BIG PS:
STOP the chaos..!! ..bust the fascist-marxist usurper & his mafia gang NOW..!! www.alipac.us/ftopict-137238.html

One problem I see is state's population divided into entire US population equalling how many tax dollars are disbursed. It should be defined as citizens and legal immigrants.

Originally Posted by johnwk

See:

Time for T.E.A. and a Fair Tax
Chuck Norris
World Net Daily Exclusive Commentary
Posted: April 13, 2009
1:00 am Eastern


It is so sad to see Chuck Norris comment on our founding fathers feelings regarding federal taxation, and then go on to promote a tax plan, the alleged fairtax, which would establish the very kind of tax which our founding fathers object to.

Mr. Norris makes the claim:

The Fair Tax does away with all taxes and puts in place a single consumptive (fair) tax, which is the closest, practical, modern proposal to the taxation system favored by the founders.

But the truth is, the alleged fair tax does not propose to do away with “all taxesâ€

I wonder how many people who support the alleged fair tax have read the actual text of H.R.25 which is far different than the fairy tale version which is panhandled by Neal Boortz?

The alleged FairTax proposes to make it illegal for a person to exercise an inalienable right of mankind ___the right to sell the property which working people have in their labor, unless that person registers with government, collects a tax for the federal government, keeps any records Congress may deem necessary, files sales tax returns under the penalty of perjury, and this does not even take into account the audits which most certainly will be involved, all of which is what ordinary working people now complain of under existing taxation!

Here are some specific provisions from the text of H.R.25

SEC. 101. IMPOSITION OF SALES TAX.

`(a) In General- There is hereby imposed a tax on the use or consumption in the United States of taxable property or services.


`(d) Liability for Tax-


`(1) IN GENERAL- The person using or consuming taxable property or services in the United States is liable for the tax imposed by this section, except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection.

`(2) EXCEPTION WHERE TAX PAID TO SELLER-A person using or consuming a taxable property or service in the United States is not liable for the tax imposed by this section if the person pays the tax to a person selling the taxable property or service and receives from such person a purchaser's receipt within the meaning of section 510.

`(f) Barter Transactions- If gross payment for taxable property or services is made in other than money, then the person responsible for collecting and remitting the tax shall remit the tax to the sales tax administering authority in money as if gross payment had been made in money at the tax inclusive fair market value of the taxable property or services purchased

`(a) In General- Any person liable to collect and remit taxes pursuant to section 103(a) who is engaged in a trade or business shall register as a seller with the sales tax administering authority administering the taxes imposed by this subtitle.

`(e) Effect of Failure To Register- Any person that is required to register and who fails to do so is prohibited from selling taxable property or services The Secretary or a sales tax administering authority may bring an action seeking a temporary restraining order, an injunction, or such other order as may be appropriate to enforce this section.


And who is Mary and Joe Sixpack? Mary and Joe have two children and find it necessary to earn extra money to pay their bills. Mary baby sits for neighbors in the community and cleans homes on week ends to raise extra money while Joe, who works for a pluming company as a full-time job, also provides the same plumbing service on his own time to people living in his community.

So, as it turns out, Mary and Joe Sixpack cannot sell the property they have in their labor unless they are in compliance with the rules laid out in H.R. 25 and involve collecting a tax for the federal government, filing sales tax returns under the penalty of perjury, keeping any records Congress may deem necessary, and audits which are necessary for compliance purposes.

How many people who now support the alleged fair tax do you think are aware of the above stated facts?

Bottom line is, we don’t need 134 pages of legal mumbo jumbo [H.R.25] to reform our federal tax system. We only need 32 words to be added to our Constitution:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

This would bring us back to our founding father’s original tax plan and taxes on consumption as our founders intended them to be laid, and are explained in Federalist No. 21.


JWK

Originally Posted by johnwk

I wonder how many people who support the alleged fair tax have read the actual text of H.R.25 which is far different than the fairy tale version which is panhandled by Neal Boortz?

The alleged FairTax proposes to make it illegal for a person to exercise an inalienable right of mankind ___the right to sell the property which working people have in their labor, unless that person registers with government, collects a tax for the federal government, keeps any records Congress may deem necessary, files sales tax returns under the penalty of perjury, and this does not even take into account the audits which most certainly will be involved, all of which is what ordinary working people now complain of under existing taxation!

Here are some specific provisions from the text of H.R.25

SEC. 101. IMPOSITION OF SALES TAX.

`(a) In General- There is hereby imposed a tax on the use or consumption in the United States of taxable property or services.


`(d) Liability for Tax-


`(1) IN GENERAL- The person using or consuming taxable property or services in the United States is liable for the tax imposed by this section, except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection.

`(2) EXCEPTION WHERE TAX PAID TO SELLER-A person using or consuming a taxable property or service in the United States is not liable for the tax imposed by this section if the person pays the tax to a person selling the taxable property or service and receives from such person a purchaser's receipt within the meaning of section 510.

`(f) Barter Transactions- If gross payment for taxable property or services is made in other than money, then the person responsible for collecting and remitting the tax shall remit the tax to the sales tax administering authority in money as if gross payment had been made in money at the tax inclusive fair market value of the taxable property or services purchased

`(a) In General- Any person liable to collect and remit taxes pursuant to section 103(a) who is engaged in a trade or business shall register as a seller with the sales tax administering authority administering the taxes imposed by this subtitle.

`(e) Effect of Failure To Register- Any person that is required to register and who fails to do so is prohibited from selling taxable property or services The Secretary or a sales tax administering authority may bring an action seeking a temporary restraining order, an injunction, or such other order as may be appropriate to enforce this section.


And who is Mary and Joe Sixpack? Mary and Joe have two children and find it necessary to earn extra money to pay their bills. Mary baby sits for neighbors in the community and cleans homes on week ends to raise extra money while Joe, who works for a pluming company as a full-time job, also provides the same plumbing service on his own time to people living in his community.

So, as it turns out, Mary and Joe Sixpack cannot sell the property they have in their labor unless they are in compliance with the rules laid out in H.R. 25 and involve collecting a tax for the federal government, filing sales tax returns under the penalty of perjury, keeping any records Congress may deem necessary, and audits which are necessary for compliance purposes.

How many people who now support the alleged fair tax do you think are aware of the above stated facts?

Bottom line is, we don’t need 134 pages of legal mumbo jumbo [H.R.25] to reform our federal tax system. We only need 32 words to be added to our Constitution:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

This would bring us back to our founding father’s original tax plan and taxes on consumption as our founders intended them to be laid, and are explained in Federalist No. 21.


JWK

I've read the FairTax legislation numerous times. It's very simple, is not a "fairy tale" at all and such an implication is quite unfair. It is a perfect proposal.

It's very simple for part-time workers who want to sell services for extra money. If you baby-sit, you charge your customer the FairTax, and once a month you send in 23% of what they paid you, on a simple state sales tax form, less your fee for collecting it. Yes, under the FairTax you get paid a fee for your trouble in filling out a report once a month and sending in the tax you collected. If you're an employed plumber by day and a free-lance plumber by night or on the weekends, the same thing applies, you charge your customer 23% and send it in once a month, like paying the rent or your mortgage, and earn a fee for doing so. The fee is the greater of $200 a month or 1/4 of 1% of what you collected, not to exceed 20% of the tax you collected. If you sold your customer plumbing parts, you'd already be subject to state sales tax anyway. If you're reporting it on your income tax now, under the FairTax, you pay no earnings or income tax at all, you just collect the tax and send it in once a month less your fee your paid for the trouble. If you babysit or do plumbing work for a company or organization or business, then you don't have to collect the tax, because business to business transactions are exempt.

To go home with all your wages and earnings that for a family of 4 earning a household income of $50k a year is worth $16,440 to you under the FairTax in more expendable income every year is a great thing for our people, and if they want to sell to the public in a second job, then they just file as a Retail Tax Collector, they'll provide you or them with all the forms and simple instructions so no one will have any difficulty complying and that's as fair a deal as heaven can give you for the additional $16,440 you'll have under the FairTax without working 1 minute in a part-time self-employed endeavor.

JWK, if you've read the FairTax, then you know it's only 32 pages of law, not 134, and less than 32 if it's on legal size documents. I don't know if laws in Congress now are still on legal size or not. But I just printed it out to be sure I wasn't hallucinating, and I'm not. It's 32 pages on standard size paper. You'll also be happy to know that this year they have added a sunset provision that requires passage of the 16th Amendment within 7 years of passage of the FairTax or the FairTax legislation expires and is no more.

What you are suggesting is nothing. You are suggesting repealing the 16th Amendment with no plan in place. You are suggesting apportioned mandatory direct taxes mandated by the states instead of by the federal government so that the states mandate to you instead of the federal government. And I'm sure you know that repealing the 16th Amendment to eliminate the Federal Income Tax is of no force or effect on states and how they would come up with your "apportioned" mandated taxes.

In any event, calling the FairTax a "fairy-tale" is not accurate. Claiming the Fair Tax Legislation HB 25 is 134 pages of "mumbo-jumbo" isn't accurate. It's 32 pages of law that anyone can read and understand replacing 77,000 pages of "code" and "regulations" no one can read or understand. Claiming the FairTax doesn't combine all taxes into a single tax isn't accurate either because the FairTax combines all mandated income-based taxes and converts them to a voluntary retail sales tax, which is all it has ever claimed to do, which is 97.3% of all taxes paid by individuals and businesses in the United States, is all that it does, and is all that the 16th Amendment ever authorized. Calling the Rebate "welfare" is inaccurate, because it isn't "welfare", it's a rebate of FairTaxes that you will spend on essentials to make them exempt because there is no other way to make essentials exempt and still maintain your privacy and keep the government out of your personal affairs which is one of the goals of the FairTax.

www.fairtax.org

I do not support the fair tax. May reasons are many and I'll pass on elaborating on them at this time.

Originally Posted by Judy

I totally support the FairTax because it eliminates all mandated income based taxes and replaces them all with a voluntary national retail sales tax on new products and services.

I get the impression from what you wrote you haven’t read the text of H.R.25, which is far different that the fairy tale version which Neal Boortz and fairtax.org panhandle to their audiences.

The alleged fair tax is in addition to many, many existing taxes, and keeps alive Congress’s powers to lay and collect “exciseâ€

Yes I've read the entire text of HB 25 multiple times. I've studied this legislation for over 4 years. I studied a national retail sales tax as a replacement to this mandated mess we have now in college 30 years ago. A national retail sales tax has always been the best tax proposal for the United States, the problem was how to exempt essentials, which the 10 economists hired by the tax reform group, Americans for Fair Taxation, whose assignment 12 years ago was to come up with a replacement alternative for the present income tax system, achieved when they chose and perfected a national retail sales tax with a rebate to exempt essentials for everyone who wants it and signs up for it.

There's nothing new at all about a national retail sales tax, the concept has been around and seriously studied for decades. What the FairTax economists achieved which is what has sent this proposal soaring in popularity was the solution to exemptions through the Rebate which removes the regressive feature that this tax like all sales or flat rate taxes have, without exemptions, which the Rebate provides. That problem of a national retail sales tax has now been solved by the Rebate and has been achieved in a brilliant and elegant fashion.

The FairTax proponents have never claimed the FairTax removes all existing taxes, it removes all existing federal income based taxes, and that is all they're talking about, that is all the FairTax does, and that's all it will do.

If you want to remove other taxes like the Excise tax which is the only other tax that individuals pay, then go pay for the research, hire some lawyers to draft some legislation, go lobby it and remove Excise taxes. But those are different issues, they are ear-marked user-based taxes like gas taxes to pay for roads and bridges, cigarette taxes to pay for health costs associated with smoking or so they claim, luxury-items because for some bizarre reason people want to penalize people with boats or jewelry or whatever the various luxury items are these days.

The FairTax legislation doesn't repeal the 16th Amendment and has never ever claimed it does. It's tax legislation, not a constitutional amendment. If you want to repeal the 16th Amendment, then get someone to introduce your 32 words into a constitutional amendment resolution, push it through Congress, and get it to the states for ratification. While the FairTax legislation has a sunset provision added to it that if the states don't ratify a repeal of the 16th Amendment within 7 years following passage of the FairTax, then the FairTax legislation terminates. the FairTax legislation is tax legislation providing for the abolishment of the IRS within 12 months after the FairTax implements to allow them time to finish up the previous years tax returns, requires destruction of all tax records except those in litigation, and prohibits future funding for the IRS thereafter.

The FairTax legislation, HB 25 repeals all social security tax for both employer and employee, repeals all federal income taxes on corporations, businesses and individuals, repeals all federal capital gains taxes on corporations, businesses, partnerships and individuals, repeals all federal income tax on interest, dividends and gifts, and repeals all federal estate taxes.

It does not repeal excise taxes on ear-marked items, tariff taxes on imported goods and services, nor does it in anyway alter or change any fees for licenses, regulatory compliance fees, regulatory user fees, or lease or resource depletion rents, fees or other charges.

It does not repeal any state or local taxes. It only repeals the taxes repealed by HB 25 which are federal income-based taxes.

Yes, it keeps the door open for excise taxes and "progressives" to tax any item they want for any purpose they want, whether it's cigarettes to fund SCHIP or gas taxes to fund roads and bridges. The objective of the FairTax proponents isn't to change social policy, it's to eliminate the income tax and replace that madness with a new and better revenue collection system that is simpler, easier, abolishes the IRS, repeals all mandated income-based taxes and replaces them with a voluntary FairTax, a national retail sales tax on new goods and services. That is what is does, that is all it has ever claimed to do, that is all that it will do.

If you thought otherwise, then you didn't read HB 25 or any of the information about it, because nothing could be more clear that the FairTax does exactly what it says it does and nothing more. You even pointed out that their website says the 16th Amendment "should be repealed" and yes it should and hopefully it will be, but HB 25 doesn't do that, separate legislation will be required to do that when the FairTax passes.

Again feel free to put forth the effort to repeal the 16th Amendment and dispense with Excise taxes any time you like. There is nothing and no one stopping you from undertaking those endeavors now. Since Excise taxes are ear-marked to certain programs for certain objectives, they have different issues, each one with its own set of proponents and opponents with their own lobbyist battles. These taxes only amount to $69 Billion a year in revenue and are only 2.7% of all federal tax receipts.

The FairTax eliminates mandatory taxes on the other 97.3% of federal tax receipts. While I'd love to wallow with you over concern with an excise gnat, those of us who want to see a new tax system to replace the income tax system are concerned with the 97% mandatory income tax elephant which the FairTax addresses 100% in as proper, fair, easy and transparent a manner as can or will ever be addressed.

Finally, the FairTax is only 32 pages of tax legislation, not "131 pages of mumbo jumbo" as you suggest, unless you're printing it out on a font 4.5 x the size of the font size set up for "printer friendly display" by the Library of Congress. But if you think the 32 pages of FairTax HB 25 is "mumbo jumbo", then what in the world do you think the present 77,000 pages of Internal Revenue Code are that it eliminates?!

I'm very informed about the FairTax and I support it 100%. I've heard all the excuses against it, 100's of times over the past 3 years from "what about the baby-sitters" to "what about the traveling flea markets" and I don't care. I don't care if a baby-sitter has to collect the tax and send it in 1 x a month in return for a fee. If they don't want to be bothered with that and compensated for it, then take a part-time job at a night nursery or work a weekend shift somewhere as an employee or hire on with Merry Maids or whatever else they may choose to do. If they mind collecting the FairTax and sending it in, then they probably weren't bothering to report it as income on their federal tax return either, so I don't care. Same goes with the moonlighting plumber. You have the option, you have the choice, you can decide to either do the work as a self-employed retailer and comply with this simple task of collecting the tax and sending it in once a month, be paid well for the the effort by the tax you collected, or you can do something else.

I support the FairTax for so many reasons, one among them being the redirection of 40% of net expendable income back into the pockets of our citizens and businesses where it belongs until a consumer is ready to buy something new, pay the tax when they choose to do so, and receive something they will enjoy in return for it, without having to pay the government first and then report to the government on all they did and what they earned and how they earned it, what they own and sold, and when they die what they're worth so the government can cut into it again.

I can't answer why you thought the FairTax was anything other than what it is, but you clearly know now, so maybe it's time to get over it.

www.fairtax.org