Thread: President Trump’s tax plan keeps the socialist communist progressive income tax alive

johnwk, slavery was a states rights issue, not a federal one. We fought the bloodiest war Americans have ever fought to end the right of states to enslave our people. You want to substitute state income and property tax slavery for the federal income tax, I oppose that 100%. If I had a choice between your plan and the existing federal income tax, I would stay with the income tax. But I have a choice to support a better plan, the FairTax plan. I'm all in for the FairTax for all the right reasons.

And honestly, quoting a slave owner about not taking the bread from the mouth of labor? Seriously?!!!

Geez.

Oh and by the way since it appears you do not know this, Thomas Jefferson didn't have anything to with our US Constitution, didn't attend or participate in the Convention that produced the US Constitution. He was involved in the Declaration of Independence, not the US Constitution.

Originally Posted by Judy

johnwk, slavery was a states . . .

Your deflection from discussing the alleged fairtax and what I have posted in response to your claims is noted. Has my documentation and reasoning finally overwhelmed you, and why you now want to talk about states rights?

LOL!! Yes, that's it, you brilliance quoting slave owners from the 1700's who weren't even involved with the US Constitution has "overwhelmed" me. Let me summarize it for you, I don't like your plan, I don't want your plan. I prefer the FairTax for all the right reasons. I hate state income tax as much as I hate federal income tax. I abhor state and local property taxes. Unless states under your plan were required to use a uniform sales tax to collect their "'share", I want nothing to do with it. A sales tax is not a direct tax, it's an indirect tax. The original tax plan was the plan they used, excises, imposts, duties and tariffs, which are taxes on transactions, just like a sales tax.

I'm all in for the FairTax so being nice to you as I've been and addressing your posts as I've done are now best left to someone else, so consider me totally "deflected" from youru posts on taxes.

FairTax is Rising and will be the law of land, very very soon.

Originally Posted by Judy

LOL!! Yes, that's it, you brilliance quoting slave owners from the 1700's who weren't even involved with the US Constitution has "overwhelmed" me. .

So now you have joined those who attack our founding fathers as "slave owners". Is that how you defend the alleged "fairtax"?

If you were so enraged over slavery, you would never support a federal taxing system which taxes Mary and Joe Sixpack on the exercise of an inalienable right ___ the right to sell the property each has in their own labor.

Tell us, Judy, why do you want to enslave Mary and Joe Sixpack and make them slaves to our federal government by compelling them to spend a portion of their lives each month filling out and filing fairtax returns and paying a tax on the exercise of an inalienable right, which is the right to sell the property they have in their own labor?

There is no essential difference between the fairtax and the communist/socialist/progressive income tax when it comes to taxing the sale of property working people have in their own labor. Have you forgotten what was said in POLLOCK v. FARMERS' LOAN &TRUST CO., 157 U.S. 429 [1895]?

”If, by calling a tax indirect when it is essentially direct, the rule of protection could be frittered away, one of the great landmarks defining the boundary between the nation and the states of which it is composed, would have disappeared, and with it one of the bulwarks of private rights and private property."


Why do you insist on taxing the sale of property which working people have in their own labor?


JWK


"The property which every man has in his own labor, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of the poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his own hands; and to hinder him from employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper, without injury to his neighbor, is a plain violation of this most sacred property."___ Butchers’ Union Co. v. Crescent City Co., 111 U.S. 746 (1884)

Judy,

I am disappointed in you. You always find a way, whenever possible, to inject the "fairtax" into a discussion to tell us how great it is. And now that I decided to accommodate you, and want to engage in a fact finding and sincere discussion, you seem to get agitated and leave.

But, just for the record, Judy, when I first heard a spokesperson on a radio talk show many, many years ago selling it, it sounded like a great idea. However, when I finally found the actual proposed legislation and studied it page by page, I realized it was far different from the presentation given on talk radio. In fact, I came to the conclusion that if the legislation were ever signed into law, Congress would maintain its current power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains and other "incomes" in addition to assuming a power to lay two new taxes: an across to board tax on articles of consumption; and a tax upon the sale of labor.

Additionally, I learned while the IRS may eventually be closed down, the fairtax would create two new tax collecting agencies: an “Excise Tax Bureau” and the “Sales Tax Bureau", in addition to keeping the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms alive which will also be collecting taxes.

I also learned that businesses and individuals subject to the fairtax would have to start filling out and filing fairtax returns every month ___ that's twelve times a year!

And if that were not enough to make some recoil from the proposal, the "fairtax" would also create another entitlement called the "family consumption allowance", which is a monthly check sent to every household in America allowing the purchase of a rationed amount of tax-free necessities of life.

Finally, as I previously pointed out, Judy, when applied to individuals like Mary and Joe, ordinary working people, the “fairtax” imposes a federal tax upon the exercise of an inalienable right of mankind ___ the inalienable right to sell the property every individual has in their own labor. And with respect to this kind of legislation, one which impinges upon a fundamental right, the Court has stated:

A legislative act which "impinges upon a fundamental right explicitly or implicitly secured by the Constitution is presumptively unconstitutional." See: Harris v. McRae United States Supreme Court (1980) Also see City of Mobile v. Bolden, 466 U.S. 55, 76, 100 S.Ct. 1490, 64 L.Ed.2d 47 (1980)

We need to look at the alleged ‘’fairtax’’ for what it really is, and not accept the sales pitch we have been given, Judy.

Sincerely,

JWK

“…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address

I don't support plumbers who moonlight and undercut their employers. SORRY!

I don't care if Mary has to file a monthly FairTax report to babysit or rake leaves, because she's PAID TO DO IT.

Of course there's a small bureau to read and process the 50 state FairTax returns submitted each month. 500 people can do it versus the present day 100,000 IRS agents.

I support Excise Taxes, that's how we pay for our roads and highways through gas taxes, which are EXCISE TAXES.

I'm not anti-government, I'm anti-income and property tax.

Originally Posted by Judy

I don't support plumbers who moonlight and undercut their employers. SORRY!

What on earth does that have to do with the alleged fairtax?

Originally Posted by Judy

I don't care if Mary has to file a monthly FairTax report to babysit or rake leaves, because she's PAID TO DO IT.

But this is just like what we now have, and even worse since it must be done every freaken month!

And who determines the value of Mary’s labor being commandeered by our federal government? Is it Mary, or is it our federal government who arbitrarily determines how much she shall be paid for filling out fairtax returns and keeping any records and reports Congress may dream up?

And how do you justify allowing our federal government to enter a State and impose a tax upon the exercise of Mary’s inalienable right to sell the property she has in her own labor? With regard to this issue ___ impinging upon a fundamental right ___ the Court has stated:

A legislative act which "impinges upon a fundamental right explicitly or implicitly secured by the Constitution is presumptively unconstitutional." See: Harris v. McRae United States Supreme Court (1980) Also see City of Mobile v. Bolden, 466 U.S. 55, 76, 100 S.Ct. 1490, 64 L.Ed.2d 47 (1980)

Originally Posted by Judy

Of course there's a small bureau to read and process the 50 state FairTax returns submitted each month. 500 people can do it versus the present day 100,000 IRS agents.

Surely you jest, Judy!

50 state fairtax returns will amount to at least 250 million returns. The number of taxpayers does not diminish under the alleged fairtax. The amount of “sales tax” agents will be pretty close to the number of IRS Agents we now have, and maybe even more since the fairtax creates two different types of tax: a tax upon the sale of articles of consumption and a tax upon the sale of labor. And this doesn’t even take into account the “Excise Tax Bureau” which is another tax collecting agency created under the alleged “fairtax”

Originally Posted by Judy

I support Excise Taxes, that's how we pay for our roads and highways through gas taxes, which are EXCISE TAXES.

I too support the use of federal excise taxes, but only as our founders intended them to be used.

Originally Posted by Judy

I'm not anti-government, I'm anti-income and property tax.

Then why do you support our federal government using its power to tax Mary on the sale of property which she has in her own labor? Why do you support taxing the exercise of an inalienable right of mankind ___ the right to sell the property which every working person has in their own labor?

The fact is, as I previously pointed out, the alleged fair tax is essentially the same as the socialist income tax in that it taxes the sale of property which every working person has in their own labor.

JWK

“…..with all these blessings, what more is necessary to make us a happy and a prosperous people? Still one thing more, fellow-citizens—a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicities“. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address