Thread: Support H.R.220 - Common Sense About Identity Theft & RE

Originally Posted by PinestrawGuys

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

The problem here is that you want to impose a stricture upon us that we feel is a threat to our liberty. Our opposition to the Real ID does not directly negatively impact you, while your support for it potentially does directly impact people like myself who have refused the federal charagma as a result of our religious faith. If you have your way, I will no longer be able to travel, to bank, to obtain licenses or likely to obtain credit or buy or sell many items (such as gold and possibly defensive weapons). If Real ID is shot down, the worst that you have to deal with is finding another form of ID for the illegals to work around. I become a second class citizen unless I compromise my commitment to my Creator.

Put simply, you have positioned yourself as a threat to my liberty or a supporter thereof. Make no mistake - you would have been on the opposite side of this issue with every one of the founders of this nation.

Crocket, do you mind if I cut and paste this and circulate it? I can think of several people and places that this succinct explanation would carry sway. I'll be glad to give attribution, of course...

As far as I am concerned, anything I post here is public domain. But I appreciate your courtesy in asking.

Hylander_1314 wrote:

The RFID chip is the first step to being numbered by the beast.

When it comes, I'm heading for the hills. I will not accept this, and would rather perish before being branded as a slave.

Remember the lesson of Hitler's Germany. What happened to those who were branded.

A little melodramatic, don't you think?

No one is going to physically brand you, nor are they going to install a chip on your person. For goodness sake, we're talking about a standardized identification card. Actually we're talking about much more, but the ID aspect of the plan seems to be the main issue of concern by most of you. As I've said before, you build a better mouse trap and I'll consider it, but until then the Real ID Act beats the status quo.

Sort of ironic that you guys and La Raza are fighting on the same side on this issue:

REAL ID Act
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Overview: The REAL ID Act was passed by the House and the Senate and signed into law by President Bush in May 2005. It was attached to the Iraqi supplemental appropriations bill, making it extremely difficult to defeat. Unfortunately, this new law makes all Americans less safe and undermines fundamental American values of fairness, due process, and protection of those fleeing persecution. The REAL ID Act will also result in an increased number of unlicensed, uninsured drivers on the roads, prevents persons fleeing persecution from receiving humanitarian relief in the U.S.

Driver’s license provisions: Among the many provisions of REAL ID are sections that place federal requirements on all state driver’s licenses. The REAL ID Act will have an impact on every person applying for a driver’s license in the entire U.S. All states, Puerto Rico, and the District of Columbia will have to change their driver’s license laws to comply with REAL ID.

While the REAL ID Act is now law, the driver’s license provisions are not in effect yet. All current driver’s licenses remain valid. Current licenses are likely to remain valid until their renewal date, even if state laws change in the meantime. States have three years to comply with the REAL ID, and each state will follow a different timeline.

The fight against the REAL ID Act is not over, and NCLR continues to work hard to challenge the new law and make its implementation as harmless as possible.

Specifically, if implemented, the REAL ID Act will:

* Require that all driver’s license applicants prove they are U.S. citizens or lawfully present in the U.S. (unfortunately not every lawful immigration status qualifies under the current law)

* Require that states issue distinct licenses based on immigration status. U.S. citizens and green card holders will get one type of “permanent” license, while legal immigrants here on temporary visas will receive another type of “temporary” license

* Require that the state driver’s license bureaus verify all documents presented to prove identity, date of birth, Social Security Number, and state residency with the agency that originally issued those documents

* Prevent the use of all foreign-issued documents other than unexpired passports to prove identity, name, and date of birth

* Require states to electronically store all information from applicants and share that information with other states

* Allow a state to provide a distinct driving document to undocumented immigrants. This document will have to be distinct and state on its face that the document cannot be accepted for federal identification purposes

If a state does not comply with all REAL ID Act provisions, no licenses from that state can be used as identification for federal purposes.

For a summary of the REAL ID Act, click here.

Related News Releases
NCLR CONDENA APROBACIÓN DE LA LEY REAL ID
NCLR CONDEMNS PASSAGE OF THE REAL ID ACT
NCLR INSTA A LEGISLADORES A MANTENER REAL ID FUERA DEL SUPLEMENTAL IRAQUÍ
NCLR URGES LAWMAKERS TO KEEP REAL ID ACT OFF IRAQI SUPPLEMENTAL APPROPRIATIONS BILL

http://www.nclr.org/content/policy/detail/29762/

And the OCA:

OCA Action Alert! OCA Action Alert! OCA Action Alert!

Last weekend, the OCA National Board voted to officially oppose the Real ID Act. OCA is joining a coalition of over 600 organizations representing Asian Pacific Americans, businesses, communities of faith, environmentalists, civil liberties advocates and human rights advocates who oppose the Real ID Act.


OCA supports national security measures to protect our country against terrorist activity. OCA also supports comprehensive reform of U.S. immigration laws. As an underlying principle, OCA supports federal laws to protect against terrorist entry, and applauds efforts of Congress to enact enhanced security measures designed to identify terrorist activity, based on actions, rather than race or ethnicity. Any measures, however, must be consistent with the American tradition of individual rights and liberties.

OCA is deeply concerned that the Real ID Act of 2005 imposes unreasonable burdens on our nation's immigrants, and significantly undermines fundamental due process and basic fairness in our immigration system, while doing little to enhance our safety or reform our immigration system.

OCA is opposed to Real ID because of the following anti-immigrant provisions:

Driver licenses would be tied to immigration status , which could lead to racial profiling and discrimination. This section would have a negative and disproportionate effect on immigrants, including the APA community. There are not enough safeguards to protect against potential abuse.

People who are trying to flee from political persecution would be forced to meet unrealistic legal standards. Under Real ID, asylum applicants would be forced to provide evidence of a central motive for their persecutors, or people who would persecute them, if they remained in their country. OCA supports tougher hate crime laws, and those laws do not even ask for a victim to prove that a perpetrator's central motive was based on race, ethnicity, or national origin, etc. Why should OCA support an asylum law that does?

The right for immigrants to appeal the judicial review process would be taken away, and they could be up for deportation even before going to trial. The judicial review section is opposite of OCA's stance as a civil rights organization. Bureaucracies make errors, and people should always have the right to appeal.

Spouses and children of parties suspected of terrorism or those who donate to organizations that may have been linked at some point to terrorists would be unnecessarily punished through the guilt by association provision. Furthermore, it creates the risk that any donor who is not a citizen and contributes to charitable causes may be deported. OCA does not believe that the provision is humane and is concerned that it will deport legal permanent resident donors who are uninformed and want to give to Asian-related causes, but do not have the capacity to check all the associations of the recipient organization.

Private bounty hunters would be empowered by the government to hunt, arrest and detain people who they believe are illegal immigrants. Also, federal and local government agencies would be obliged to provide the private bounty hunters with any information they think they would need to find these people who they believe to be illegal immigrants. OCA believes that border security should be left to the border patrol, not private citizen vigilantes.

More than 600 organizations from across the political spectrum have declared their opposition to the Real Id Act ranging from
environmental, health, business, Asian, faith, Hispanic, Native American and women groups. The costs of enacting this proposed legislation outweighs the benefits. The bill overall is not well crafted.

BACKGROUND:

Last week, the Senate passed the emergency spending bill to fund the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and to provide much needed relief to the victims of the tsunami disaster (H.R. 126. The Senate version of the bill does not include the REAL ID Act.

Now the Senate and the House of Representatives will meet in conference to reconcile the differences between their versions of the bill. The House version of H.R. 1268 does contain the REAL ID Act. Moreover, the White House has expressed support for the inclusion of REAL ID in the final emergency spending bill. We expect the conference to be completed by the end of this week. Please act NOW.

http://www.ocalongisland.com/news/n050429.html

And these folks:

Labor, immigrant rights groups oppose Real ID Act
Search WWW Search pww.org

Archive Oct. 2001 - 2007 editions 2005 Editions Apr 16, 2005
Author: Special to the World
People's Weekly World Newspaper, 04/14/05 11:14


Labor and immigrant rights organizations assembled at San Jose’s State Building April 7 to kick off national days of action against the Bush administration’s virulently anti-immigrant Real ID Act, now pending in the Senate. They urged a flood of calls and faxes to California Sens. Dianne Feinstein and Barbara Boxer, neither of whom have expressed a position on the measure.

“The Real ID Act challenges all the ideals that this country was founded on,” said Hong-An Tran, federal policy analyst at the San Jose-based SIREN (Services, Immigrant Rights, and Education Network). The act “bypasses our democratic legislative system, it undermines the American value of being the haven for asylum seekers, and it divides communities,” she added.

Joining Tran in the press conference were representatives of American Muslim Voice, African Refugee Community Services, the Asian Law Alliance, ACLU of Northern California, the South Bay Labor Council and Santa Clara Building and Construction Trades Council.

The bill, tacked onto a war-appropriations measure, passed the House in February. Similar legislation is working its way through the Senate and may be attached to appropriations for the Iraq war or for tsunami relief. The Bush administration claims the bill is necessary to protect national security. But at a town hall meeting on immigration in Oakland April 2, Congresswoman Barbara Lee called the Real ID Act “another example of playing on fear and scapegoating immigrants,” and urged its defeat in the Senate.

The bill would let government officials require applicants for asylum to get written confirmation for their claims from the same governments they are fleeing. It would expand the Patriot Act to permit lawful residents to be deported for providing nonviolent, humanitarian support to organizations later labeled “terrorist” by the government, even if such support was entirely legal when provided. The act would also require applicants for drivers’ licenses to verify citizenship or permanent resident status even when such a restriction violates state laws.

http://www.pww.org/article/view/6814/1/264/

Yes, you guys are even aligned with MALDEF on this issue:

http://www.ime.gob.mx/investigaciones/2 ... alysis.pdf

If it makes you feel any better, Danny Glover has joined immigrant groups in marching against the Real ID Act:

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Actor Danny Glover will March to stop REAL ID in Wis. Enviado por uti el Marzo 20, 2007 - 7:08am. Inmigracion | Ley de las Licencias | Local
For immediate release:

Actor Danny Glover will March to stop REAL ID in Wis.
March 24th at 2 p.m. – March from Brittingham Park to the Capitol

Madison – Film star and activist Danny Glover will travel to Madison to join the March for Immigrant Rights which steps off at 2 pm on Saturday, March 24, at Brittingham Park proceeding to a rally at the State Capitol. Glover will be accompanied by Bruce Raynor, international president for UNITE HERE, a union representing a large number of immigrant workers in the hotel and apparel industries.

Speakers at the State Capitol rally will call on Congress to craft a humane and workable immigration reform bill – and also call on the state of Wisconsin to put a moratorium on Act 126, the first step in implementing the federal REAL ID Act, scheduled to go into effect April 1.

Organized labor, the Immigrant Workers Union and other allies are asking the legislature and Governor's office to take a closer look at the problems Act 126 (Legal Presence in Wisconsin) will create for everyone in the state. As of April 1, anyone applying for (or renewing) a Wisconsin driver's license must prove they are in the country legally, which may be difficult to do without a certified birth certificate or U.S. passport. See new requirements at: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/drivers/dr ... -legal.htm

Measures like the Wisconsin law also mean more red tape, longer lines, repeat trips, and higher fees. Implementation of REAL ID is expected to cost $23 billion in taxpayer dollars nationally while doing little if anything to protect against terrorism. Critics of REAL ID, including the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), say the law will also increase the risk of identify theft, enable the routine tracking of individuals, and propel us toward a surveillance society.

According to the ACLU, there is a growing rebellion against REAL ID nationwide. In January, the Maine legislature passed a resolution rejecting participation in the ID scheme and Idaho enacted a similar law this month. Measures to resist the implementation of Real ID have been passed by one chamber in the legislatures of ten states including Arizona and Georgia. Bills rejecting Real ID have also been introduced in Hawaii, Kentucky, Maryland, Massachusetts, Missouri, Oklahoma, Washington and West Virginia, with more expected in the coming weeks.

Federal legislation to repeal REAL ID has also been introduced but Wisconsin is still moving forward with new restrictions.

"We hope that the legislature and the Doyle administration will consider the best interests of the people in Wisconsin. REAL ID is far from being accepted at the state level and citizens are not prepared to meet the requirements of ACT 126," said Alex Gillis of the Immigrant Workers Union.

"The state is moving forward with higher fees and a policy that will cause massive confusion and inconvenience at the DMV, while making our roads less safe with more unlicensed drivers," said Gillis. "The only wise and responsible way to proceed with ACT 126 is to wait until after comprehensive immigration reform and the fate of the REAL ID Act are decided in Congress."

For more on Real ID visit the ACLU's website: http://www.RealNightmare.org
About the campaign

The Immigrant Workers Union is a grassroots organization focused on immigrant and worker rights advocacy in the Dane County area. Other organizations supporting the campaign against REAL ID and ACT 126 include: South Central Federation of Labor, the Interfaith Coalition for Worker's Justice, SEIU Local 1 "Justice for Janitors", SEIU District 1199W, PRD (Madison branch of the Mexican Party), UNITE HERE, immigrant rights groups in Beloit and Whitewater, and many others.

http://www.uniondetrabajadores.org/?q=node/68

There's a reason all these criminal alien supporters are rallying against the Real ID Act and it's not because they're worried about being branded.

MW
Being insulting doesn't make you look very good.

If you have a difference of opinion, that is one thing. However, playing the above little game won't fly. Condescending?

You have, after all, been wrong on several occassions so your track record is a bit iffy.

Off the top of my head:
Is the FENCE anywhere to be found? NOPE
Did the PENCE bill surface again? YUP

Furthermore, if la raza and maldef can be useful idiots, fine.
At least they'd be good for something in the long run other than sewage.

Of course, if you like an ID chip.....why not head over to the EU/England and try one on for size. They've chipped some of their military several years ago and working very, very diligently at getting the kids CHIPPED now.

BRANDING? Nope...........CHIPS? you got it.
You can be first in line.

2ndamendsis wrote:

MW
Being insulting doesn't make you look very good.

If you have a difference of opinion, that is one thing. However, playing the above little game won't fly. Condescending?

You have, after all, been wrong on several occassions so your track record is a bit iffy.

Off the top of my head:
Is the FENCE anywhere to be found? NOPE
Did the PENCE bill surface again? YUP

Furthermore, if la raza and maldef can be useful idiots, fine.
At least they'd be good for something in the long run other than sewage.

Of course, if you like an ID chip.....why not head over to the EU/England and try one on for size. They've chipped some of their military several years ago and working very, very diligently at getting the kids CHIPPED now.

BRANDING? Nope...........CHIPS? you got it.

Hmmm..........since when is defending my position insulting?

If you have a difference of opinion, that is one thing. However, playing the above little game won't fly. Condescending?

Trust me, I'm playing no game here. If you insist on concentrating on one aspect of the Real ID Act that you don't agree with, that's fine, but don't expect me to dismiss the entire plan just because YOU don't agree with it. If I came off as condescending, I apologize because that was not my intent. What I was attempting to do is show you where the Real ID Act could be benefical to our cause. Sorry you don't agree. By the way, I didn't see you speak up when I was insulted? No matter though, because my skin is fairly thick.

You have, after all, been wrong on several occassions so your track record is a bit iffy.

Off the top of my head:
Is the FENCE anywhere to be found? NOPE
Did the PENCE bill surface again? YUP

Please explain your comment regarding my being wrong on several occasions (talk about insulting and condescending ). If you're going to question my crediability, please be specific. As for the fence, it's not over until it's over. Honestly, I don't understand what the fence has to do with my crediability. I don't have ESP, nor am I in control of Congress. Sure I hope the fence gets built, don't you? Furthermore, I supported the bill that proposed the fence. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't my comments regarding my sense that the fence could get built come before the Democrats took control of Congress? Hey, Rome wasn't built in a day and the fence issue isn't over yet. Did you watch Lou Dobbs tonight? Duncan Hunter still insist the fence is going to get built because it's the law. Obviously he can't make Congress build the fence, but he sure can build it if he's elected President of the United States (I'll keep my fingers crossed).

Furthermore, if la raza and maldef can be useful idiots, fine.
At least they'd be good for something in the long run other than sewage.

Trust me, it's not us they're looking out for. They don't want the Real ID Act because they have thoroughly researched the issue and are fully aware of the damaging effects it'll have on criminal aliens.

Of course, if you like an ID chip.....why not head over to the EU/England and try one on for size. They've chipped some of their military several years ago and working very, very diligently at getting the kids CHIPPED now.

Not relevent to the conversation. The Real ID Act does not allow for physically chipping individuals.

Look, I'm sorry if you found my post condescending and insulting, but as you well know, I'm not one to hold back on my feelings on an issue just because it runs contrary to the majority. I stand by my position on this issue - the Real ID Act has a lot of positives that I think some have chosen to ignore simply because they don't agree with one aspect of it. Perhaps I don't completely agree with that aspect of the plan either, but I'm certainly not prepared to dismiss the good it could do so easily.

Okay guys, I'm your Huckleberry - blast away.

You're right, 2ndamendsis. I went back and read my original post and have concluded that it was a little condescending. For what it's worth, you have my apology.

YOU To hylander

little melodramatic, don't you think?

To all

Sort of ironic that you guys and La Raza are fighting on the same side on this issue:

Yes, you guys are even aligned with MALDEF on this issue:

http://www.ime.gob.mx/investigaciones/2 ... alysis.pdf

If it makes you feel any better, Danny Glover has joined immigrant groups in marching against the Real ID Act:

ME to YOU:
You're now the fool. Chipping is already being accomplished & becoming common as I mentioned to you and YES - it's quite relevant. Too bad that you haven't yet learned from history the meaning of "incrementalism" as used by governments worldwide through the centuries. The Real ID is the preliminary to chipping. Wake up & smell the coffee. Why do you think we've come to this point in time? Because people like you allowed it to escalate by not understanding why and how legislation works. You do not understand history and repeat the same errors over and over.
{the below is your comment to hylander}

No one is going to physically brand you, nor are they going to install a chip on your person.

your comment to me

Not relevent to the conversation. The Real ID Act does not allow for physically chipping individuals.

FENCE?
have you located it yet? Let me know when you have and I'll buy you a cup of coffee while I send up the balloons.
Call me crazy but I'm still searching for the NON FENCE/FENCE.
Again, I do remember cautioning everyone as did William. Alas, no funding and NO FENCE.

etc. etc. etc. I'm too tired to go on.

Again, if you disagree that's fine. What I can't abide is your attempting to be rude and insulting to people who don't agree with YOU.


You have a difference of opinion? Great.........try discussing it without being rude & insulting.

Do you take pleasure in provoking and irritating me, 2ndamendsis? As you well know, this isn't the first time you've done it. Honestly, you have absolutely no business calling anyone insulting or condescending (look to your own house before you throw stones). I'm sorry that you weren't able to accept my apology with the same sincerity that it was given. Being a moderator does not excuse bad behavior.

For the record, I don't appreciate being called a "fool" on a public forum, nor do I appreciate you bending my comments to fit your perceived thoughts on what you think I'm attempting to accomplish and say.

You're now the fool.

Personally, I've never called anyone on this site a "fool," but then again I don't pretend to have all the answers either.

Wake up & smell the coffee.

I think that comment qualifies as insulting, don't you?

Because people like you allowed it to escalate by not understanding why and how legislation works.

You don't personally know me and have no way of knowing what my knowledge base is regarding the workings of legislation.

You do not understand history and repeat the same errors over and over.

FYI: My minor was in History and I'd be willing to wager you that my knowledge base on the subject exceeds yours (not that it matters).

What I can't abide is your attempting to be rude and insulting to people who don't agree with YOU.

Hmmm.......pot meet kettle. You've disagreed with me in the past and been very rude in condemning my comments.

If you want to ban me from ALIPAC for being honest with my opinions, so be it, but please don't ever call me a "fool" again unless you're staring me in the face (not a threat, just a request). Furthermore, not agreeing with my position is fine, but don't run around the bush in an attempt to reduce my credibility thinking it'll add to yours.

Hylander_1314, hopefully you and anyone else I offended will accept my apology, even though 2ndamendsis wouldn't.

MW
get off of it. Playing the victim is old and tired.

None of us will agree with each other all of the time. That's human nature.

You provoked in this thread by being condecending & insulting in the first place.

MW, I for one appreciate your arguments even if I reject them. The exception is your attempt to confer guilt by association by listing the "bad guys" who happen to agree with the position of those opposing the Real ID (for wholly different reasons.) I would like to see your rebuttal to my earlier post directed at you and your argument. The gist of the post was that the harm to you if Real ID does not pass cannot begin to compare to the harm its passage will do to many of your fellow citizens.

Again, this is not, nor was it ever meant to be, a democracy. The reason that we have a constitutional republic is so that the folly or the duress of the majority cannot use force of numbers to strip the minority of its dearly held rights. And yes, there are numerous rights, both enumerated and unenumerated, that will be trampled by the institution of a mandatory federal ID system. That you do not appreciate or hold dear that particular set of rights is neither here nor there, and that you choose convenience over the protection of precious rights is unfortunate in the extreme.

My final comment is addressed generically to anyone who may be auditing this debate. Are we going to again allow the powers that control our government to "correct" a problem created by that government itself (by its gross failure to enforce the laws of the land and to protect the citizenry, in this case, from invasion) by stripping us of more rights and tightening its increasingly universal control over our lives and fortunes? Do you not see the pattern? It's one of the oldest control ploys in existence. In order to make the masses swallow a bitter pill, create a malady that "requires" the bitter pill as an antidote. No thanks! I have had quite enough bitter pills shoved down my throat by the New Dealers and othe Socialist wolves in sheep's clothing.

Hmmm.......pot meet kettle. You've disagreed with me in the past and been very rude in condemning my comments.

Nope, MW.....disagreed, yes. Been rude to you, nope. Condeming, nope.
I've been firm in my assessments, research and experience.
Don't lay this problem on me.

There is a difference as, if I remember, we privately discussed some time ago.

On the other hand, you repeated to the posters here what you've done to me in the past.

As I am passionately against the Real ID or any legislation that errodes my FREEDOMS and those of my fellow Americans, I found your posts concerning this subject more insulting in presentation and less productive in debate.