Thread: America is no longer a Sovereign Nation.

I hope every ALIPAC member gets a chance to read your incredible post AI_BOT.

God bless you for writing it as it expresses, quite eloquently I might add, both the anger and resentment we feel towards a government that has failed us. More importantly though, it offers hope in that we, the PEOPLE, can change the outcome, but only if we have the WILL to do so.

I do.

I don’t know that a “sense of consternation” effectively communicates the contempt and loathing I feel for our current session of the U.S. Senate, neigh, the majority of our political representation in government at every level. The Declaration of Independence asserted the free nature of the States of America and their intent to operate together in a union (lower case) to throw-off the oppressive rule of tyranny and assert their ability to govern themselves (the States that is). It is clear when one goes back and actually reads the words of the Founding Fathers that the States were to have the majority of power. We were intended to operate under Nation States and that these States would be joined as the united States of America in pursuit of common goals. That this united voice could shake off the tyranny that oppressed its collective People and reestablish the States’ rights to govern themselves. This union was intended to be of limited scope and size as not to encroach on an individual States’ right to govern. Our Federal Government has failed us miserably in one of the few tasks it was mandated to carry out; the establishment and protection of our borders from invasion. This was done so that no individual State could be seen as weaker than another and be taken by force. A collection of all States working in concert to present a united front stood the best chance. But our Federal Government has allowed eleven and a half million people from every nation in the World to invade our borders. These invaders are now conspiring against Us. They are openly spreading the message that they have achieved a “critical mass” to effect change in Our country. Some in our government operate in collusion with these invaders and are promoting their revolution. The conspirators against the People wish to sweep aside and ignore all of their collective illegal activity. Citizens rot in jail or are fined huge sums in penalties by the IRS while the conspirators ask that known criminals, bleeding the People dry, only be required to pay three fifths of what they are calculated to owe based on whatever it is they feel to report for the past 5 years; oh, and nothing prior to that. Your elected officials have defamed and denigrated every American’s status as a Citizen. They have defined your worth as a Citizen by ignoring the will of the People. They believe they have put you in your place. The Federal Government of today, that collection of traitorous politicians that operate outside the will of the People, has usurped the power of the States, operates outside the interest of the People, attempts to govern and enforce morality which is outside of its power, and bends to the will of foreign governments. You don’t believe me? Look at their record and compare it to the polls that show what the People really want. Where is your outrage! Our elected representatives have taken it upon themselves to choose for us, to impose their will, to become tyrants! We must throw off this tyranny! We must be diligent in seeking out and cutting off the power hungry tyrants, the puppets and the puppet masters, the robber-barons. I do not know who said it but it has been said that to find corruption in government one must simply look for it. This statement becomes more painfully obvious each and every day. It is nearing the time for the People to revolt against a government that, it would seem in its majority, does not represent the People. I fear that I may be singled out and persecuted by my government for writing my thoughts. I fear for my wife and child. I fear for loosing all I have worked hard for at the hands of those who do not wish to relinquish control to the People. I fear I may loose my American Dream. Even greater is my fear that I will loose the America on which that dream is built. An America built on the blood, sweat, tears and ideals of People far greater than I.

AI_BOT,
Rancho Santa Margarita, California

Andy, I can't believe you say that. A way to track your every move. The day you get a chip is the day you give up all rights and freedom. If national security is a threat then why are our borders wide open this many years after a terror attack. You would think they would have locked down this country instead of letting people from at least 24 different country's pour in across our southern border.

Do you know what hope is? It's magic and it's free.
It's not in a prescription. It's not in an IV.
It punctuates our laughter. It sparkles in our tears.
It simmers under sorrows. It dissipates our fears.
Do you know what hope is? It's reaching past today.
It's dreaming of tomorrow. It's trying a new way.
It's pushing past impossible. It's pounding on the door.
It's questioning the answer. It's always seeking more.
It's rumours of a break. It's whispers of a cure.
A roller coaster ride. Of remedies, unsure.
Do you know what hope is? It's candy for the soul.
It's perfume for the spirit. To share it makes you whole.
Take my hand...come... Let's share this hope...together...

author unknown

Originally Posted by andyt

clip* I know that Franklin(?) said anyone who would give up liberty for temporary security deserves neither. /clip*

An excerpt from "The Declaration of Independence":

“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

The idea of Safety without something to ensure and secure that safety is simply a lie. Our Founding Fathers knew that. This was the reason for the union. This is the reason ALL NATIONS track and regulate the activities of foreigners in their nations, is why they control immigration. It is to ensure and protect the safety of the nation.

These two concepts are at times at odds with one another. It is in the hands of reasonable People that the balance must be struck. But we are being told to promote happiness to an invading force of foreigners and at the same time we are being demanded to ignore our responsibility to the safety of our nation and the ideals on which it was built.

The National ID must be implemented and monitored, as the government should be, by the AMERICAN PEOPLE. We are in control! The government is accountable to Us. If a government representative goes against the will of the People then the People MUST enforce their rights and remove the traitor!

A National ID should be a badge of honor carrying with it the strength and fortitude of every man, woman and child that have died to ensure the rights afforded to the citizens of the United States of America. Every Right you claim is afforded you by this title of Citizen and by the blood of those who have defended it for you. I welcome the opportunity to stand up and be identified as a citizen that I might exercise my rights to their fullest extent without fear of reprisal by the invading forces of foreigners.

There are places in this collection of States that people, Citizens, fear for their lives. There are places here in California that I would fear for my life just walking the streets during the day let alone in the darkness of night. There are places where patriotic Citizens are ashamed of the fear they feel for simply waving the American Flag in public. In the streets of America these foreign invaders trespass on the rights of Citizens and spit on these brave Flag waving patriots and Our government in their unabashed gall claim to want to spread love and happiness to these people. In these actions, if allowed to continue, the blood of the American Patriot is thinned in the hopes that it will be washed away and forgotten. If we are not careful the ideals of Our Founding Fathers, the basis of our government, will one day be labeled as an “idealistic approach to a utopian society” to be weighed and measured equally with the likes Socialism and Communism.

I am a citizen of the United States of America.
This is my voice, my opinion, and my RIGHT!
I am standing to be counted.
AI_BOT

I agree with the title for this topic. We are not a sovereign nation anymore. But, bear w/ me a moment. We still have the laws on the books that define us as the nation that WE still support.

This is not over by any means. A third party is on the rise and will post a link in our "news" section.

Originally Posted by AI_BOT

Originally Posted by andyt

clip* I know that Franklin(?) said anyone who would give up liberty for temporary security deserves neither. /clip*

An excerpt from "The Declaration of Independence":

“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”

The idea of Safety without something to ensure and secure that safety is simply a lie. Our Founding Fathers knew that. This was the reason for the union. This is the reason ALL NATIONS track and regulate the activities of foreigners in their nations, is why they control immigration. It is to ensure and protect the safety of the nation.

These two concepts are at times at odds with one another. It is in the hands of reasonable People that the balance must be struck. But we are being told to promote happiness to an invading force of foreigners and at the same time we are being demanded to ignore our responsibility to the safety of our nation and the ideals on which it was built.

The National ID must be implemented and monitored, as the government should be, by the AMERICAN PEOPLE. We are in control! The government is accountable to Us. If a government representative goes against the will of the People then the People MUST enforce their rights and remove the traitor!

A National ID should be a badge of honor carrying with it the strength and fortitude of every man, woman and child that have died to ensure the rights afforded to the citizens of the United States of America. Every Right you claim is afforded you by this title of Citizen and by the blood of those who have defended it for you. I welcome the opportunity to stand up and be identified as a citizen that I might exercise my rights to their fullest extent without fear of reprisal by the invading forces of foreigners.

There are places in this collection of States that people, Citizens, fear for their lives. There are places here in California that I would fear for my life just walking the streets during the day let alone in the darkness of night. There are places where patriotic Citizens are ashamed of the fear they feel for simply waving the American Flag in public. In the streets of America these foreign invaders trespass on the rights of Citizens and spit on these brave Flag waving patriots and Our government in their unabashed gall claim to want to spread love and happiness to these people. In these actions, if allowed to continue, the blood of the American Patriot is thinned in the hopes that it will be washed away and forgotten. If we are not careful the ideals of Our Founding Fathers, the basis of our government, will one day be labeled as an “idealistic approach to a utopian society” to be weighed and measured equally with the likes Socialism and Communism.

I am a citizen of the United States of America.
This is my voice, my opinion, and my RIGHT!
I am standing to be counted.
AI_BOT

I could not disagree more with your premise regarding a national ID. Nor would the Founding Fathers have agreed. IDs are for slaves, not for freemen. In the Roman Empire, only bondmen were required to carry IDs, in the form of the charagma. The same is true of monarchical Europe, where serfs and peasants were required to obtain papers from their lords before travelling through their lands.

The correct answer is, quite to the contrary, to eliminate these papers which magically grant legitimacy to illegal interlopers. Is not the SSN a de facto national ID? Is it not the fake SSNs that grant legitimacy to illegal laborers? And please don't start with this "tamperproof" nonsense! There is no such thing as a tamperproof ID, just as there is no such thing as a counterfeit-proof monetary instrument.

The fact is that there are plenty of people who WANT any national ID to be capable of being faked, because they want to be able to exploit the users thereof. Even now, employers can use a simple program to check the validity of an SSN being offered as proof of work eligibility. They REFUSE to use the program because they want to be able to maintain palusible deniability when hiring illegal aliens at dirt wages. Period.

It was long a standing rule of American law that the misdeeds of the criminal element did not justify the punishment of the innocent. Such is the case here. There are many decent Americans who are morally, philosophically, and religiously opposed to any form af national ID. Using the illegal alien crisis as a justification to subject those honest Americans to federal registration and the receipt of their "mark" is reprehensible, and I most certainly believe that is is EXACTLY the sort of thing of which Ben Franklin spoke when he issued his warning about surrendering liberty for security. For those of you willing to take the nationa ID card route, I have a quote from another great American patriot that I think is quite fitting:

"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

-- Samuel Adams

Thank you.

Thank you for thinking. Thank you for challenging me. Thank you for standing up to be counted.

But I am curious as to what liberty is lost in identifying and verifying rightful citizens? The SSN is a retirement account number. It was never meant to be anything more. The unfortunate thing is the asleep-at-the-wheel American People have allowed the politicians to operate outside the will of the People. How do you identify a citizen? How is it that known criminals, illegal immigrants, murderers, drug dealers, and kidnappers travel around this country, live and work? The government knows me already. They have recorded my birth, my immunizations, my grades in school, my crimes, my marriage, my income, my political affiliation, and will one day record my death. Are you saying that no man, woman, or child be required to prove citizenship? If so then everyone here must be a citizen because it simply needs to be claimed and not supported. But, if citizenship must be able to be proven, what evidence is required as proof? Can this not be obtained through fraud and forgery as well? If you do not support the “lie” of a verifiable national ID for sole purpose of establishing proof of citizenship then you either support no identification, everyone is a citizen, and therefore no nation or you support the lie of citizenship as long as there are other lies, fraud and forgeries to support it. Face facts, all you need to get an SSN is a birth certificate and that can be faked or stolen. It takes very little for an illegal alien or other criminal in this country to assume your identity.

The basic political, social, and economic rights afforded to us as citizens of the United States of America is the defined scope of our liberty. Politicians pass laws the People do not want but a national ID would take away your liberty. Morality laws make it illegal for citizens to grow or smoke marijuana but the national ID would take away your liberty. The way you invest your money or save for retirement down to acquiring permission to buy, sell, or be in possession of certain goods is regulated or possibly not allowed by law but the national ID would take away your liberty.

I know you are passionate about the issue and that passion is needed in debating the issue. I simply ask you to take some time to think long and hard about the issue.

AI_BOT

I have been reviewing people's statements and all I can say is that matters can have passion behind them, but that doesn't produce headway in terms of resolving issues unless there objective results. We all know that our immigration system is not broken, but people have been breaking the law on both sides of the fence for one simple reason: economics and survival regardless of the crime, diseases and other problems when illegal immigration gets out of control. Everyone in these forums along with all true Americans have a stake in what is going on and I don't care what some people say, the law is the law and social security numbers and other information can be checked....it is not a threat to a legal citizen, but it sure is to those who are fraudulent. The statements that are usually generated by pro-legal groups revolve around ad hominem arguments that try to circumnavigate the law and the truth....and they are getting bashed by virtue of their drivel.

Originally Posted by AI_BOT

Thank you.

Thank you for thinking. Thank you for challenging me. Thank you for standing up to be counted.

But I am curious as to what liberty is lost in identifying and verifying rightful citizens? The SSN is a retirement account number. It was never meant to be anything more. The unfortunate thing is the asleep-at-the-wheel American People have allowed the politicians to operate outside the will of the People. How do you identify a citizen? How is it that known criminals, illegal immigrants, murderers, drug dealers, and kidnappers travel around this country, live and work? The government knows me already. They have recorded my birth, my immunizations, my grades in school, my crimes, my marriage, my income, my political affiliation, and will one day record my death. Are you saying that no man, woman, or child be required to prove citizenship? If so then everyone here must be a citizen because it simply needs to be claimed and not supported. But, if citizenship must be able to be proven, what evidence is required as proof? Can this not be obtained through fraud and forgery as well? If you do not support the “lie” of a verifiable national ID for sole purpose of establishing proof of citizenship then you either support no identification, everyone is a citizen, and therefore no nation or you support the lie of citizenship as long as there are other lies, fraud and forgeries to support it. Face facts, all you need to get an SSN is a birth certificate and that can be faked or stolen. It takes very little for an illegal alien or other criminal in this country to assume your identity.

The basic political, social, and economic rights afforded to us as citizens of the United States of America is the defined scope of our liberty. Politicians pass laws the People do not want but a national ID would take away your liberty. Morality laws make it illegal for citizens to grow or smoke marijuana but the national ID would take away your liberty. The way you invest your money or save for retirement down to acquiring permission to buy, sell, or be in possession of certain goods is regulated or possibly not allowed by law but the national ID would take away your liberty.

I know you are passionate about the issue and that passion is needed in debating the issue. I simply ask you to take some time to think long and hard about the issue.

AI_BOT

For starters, ask yourself WHY you "must" identify a US citizen. All the alleged benefits that we are fretting over illegals obtaining are just a means of controlling us with our own damned money. The government uses the threat of confiscation, incarceration, or violence via its taxing power to take your money from you then attaches strings in order for you to get any of it back. This was NEVER intended by the framers of the Constitution, nor is it authorized. As a matter of fact, the form of taxation that most directly affects us is strictly forbidden in Art. 1, Sec. 9, and the Supreme Court ruled in Brushaber v Union Pacific RR that Amendment XVI did not circumvent that prohibition. So the government is using a tax it has no authority to collect to operate programs that it has no authority to operate, then it coerces us into accepting a universal identifying number allegedly to prevent foreigners from stealing those tax dollars before we can get them back. What a nifty trick! If Hitler had been that subtle he probably would have ended up as Feuhrer of the world.

As for the ID itself, it is only as secure as those administering it want it to be. We could have the most tamperproof Drivers License in the world, but as long as they are being handed out to any schlub with an address on a utility bill, what damned good does it do? Do you have any doubt that the new national ID would be as easy for illegals to obtain if that's what the powers that be desire?

As for all the items you haphazardly list in your penultimate paragraph as being alleged incursions on our liberty, do you not fathom that most of them are made possible by the identifiying cards and programs we already have? Do you understand, for example, that participation in Social Security is entirely voluntary, and that it would not pass constitutional muster were it no so? Do you not fathom that so-called "morality laws" (I am assuming you refer to moral turpitude laws) are, on the other hand, part and parcel to the concept of the republic envisioned by the FFs? The rub comes when those moral turpitude laws move beyond the scope of the given community and are made universal by the federal entity. As local laws they are no threat, because like-minded individuals may cloister in communities and pass such moral turpitude laws as suit their morals and beliefs. If you don't like the laws where you live, you simply move to a community that shares your beliefs. In such a system, there is no argument about homosexual marriage or controlled substances because homosexuals may move to Key West or San Francisco and vote to allow sex with horses if they so desire, while a rural Tennessee community can choose to not recognize homosexual unions if its citizens are morally opposed to the concept.

As for the national ID itself, do you not comprehend the level of control over your life such a thing would afford the federal government? Once you are required to produce that ID or number for every movement, every transaction, every book you check out from the library, will not the government be in a position to destroy you if it so desires? Maybe you trust the current administration. Maybe you trust the last one. Whatever the case, the day will come that a genuine tyrant will assume power, and he (or she) will have control of your every move because everything you do, everything you write, everything you buy or sell, everyone you associate with will be tracked by that number.

The founding fathers counselled us, and wisely so, to be perpetually vigilant. We could not have more blatantly disregarded that sound advice if such had been our willful intent. We have a government run amok, pursuing an agenda that could be characterized as contrary the will and benefit of We the People at best, and as treasonous at worst. Now you want to allow that government even more power? And why? Is it not because of the government's OWN FAILURES that we are now clamouring for even more control and power in the hands of that same sorry government? Does that not make anyone else here scratch his head in utter confusion?

I'm with you Crockett. I did not do anything wrong. They have and have had a means to fix this problem and didn't. It's simply easier to have us surrender more rights and freedoms than to do their job. I know it "appears" to be such a simple and easy thing to do to go along with this. You just have to see where this sort of thing takes you down the road in the hands of an evil person. Bit by bit, piece by piece, our lives and our choices are no longer our own. You run with the majority for what seems to be in the "best interest" of everyone and TRUST ME...before long they are going to stomp on your toes. I'm not talking illegal things. It starts with seemingly little innocent things. Just like ibob said about the mis-use of our social security numbers. Thing is.....there was a time you could not cash a check or do anything unless you gave that number. It wasn't supposed to be that way....but that's where it ended. Now we have some of the businesses that will not give you a pay check anymore for the job you do. They want direct deposit. Sounds easy and innocent enough. But trust me......they can take your pay right back out and your stuck fighting to get it back for months and even years. Works swell till something goes wrong. And just watch those bounce check fees mount up while you're still trying to figure out what happened. Today it's cigarettes, then it's soda, now they want to control our food portion size in restaurants because Americans are too fat.
I can't get my sinus pills for my allergies without signing my life over because some jerk wants a meth lab and it's easier to make my life hell than to go after the one doing wrong.

There comes a time when enough is enough. It's MY life. I am responsible for me. And they are and have been crossing the line to controlling people and personally.....I'm not going to be first in line on their empty promises to make that job easier for them.