Thread: America is no longer a Sovereign Nation.

We , Americans , mainly between two groups Red and Blue states
between Republicans and Democrats
between Social Conservatives and Social Liberal
between the ones who support strong military and those who do not
between those who are part of the "liberal elite and the rest of the people"

Is that really truth? or it is simplistic?

So far the Ilegal inmigration debates had shown that

Forces who support Social Conservatives from the Catholic Church , Evangelicals , Business , and many REpublicans in the Senate and our Executive branch, which included our president and his staff and forces which support Social Liberal values and support anti American protest and most of the time undermine the uniqueness of the American and Western experience undervalue it in the media, movies etc and those who are part of the
wealthy cultural economic elite who are social liberals and those who belong to the wealthy cultural economic elite who belong to social conservative

join hands and find common ground when the issue of Ilegal inmigration come up

The issue is critical

Terrorist can potentially enter our nation as Ilegal inmigrants,
as we lost control of our border , it is easier for our enemies to slip in

American workers regardless of being red, blue, REpublican Democrat or whatever suffered depressing wages and lost of services

due to the Ilegal inmigration which provide cheaper labor to the corporation

which added to the outsourcing of jobs ,

brings pain and duress to our families

but the forces who claim to stand for America be red or blue

can shown their true colors

by behavior.

If for average Joe interest and for Most of American families interest

the position which such coalition accross the religious , political leadership cultural spectrum.

Such behavior shows that they care for the security of our nation ,
that they care for the well being and bread and butter of Americans
that they really mean what they say when they ask American to support causes to protect families etc or what is really their agenda

Maybe in the past , we knew where Republicans, Democrats , Business , Cultural and REligious Leaders really stood

but the facts seems to show that not longer is so clear cut

all is more fuzzy and

not longer seems realistic that anyone message really is providing a clear and uncontradictory message for American interest

So , are we really divided between REd and Blue and Social Conservatives and Liberal or all is more

complex so should we trust anyone who talk the talk but where is the beef

More....

I can see where the road CAN lead. I will even attest that, if left to the politicians alone, that it would be likely. But how can an illegal alien be identified if we cannot at least establish that they are not a citizen.

I do not think that the national ID is a bad idea. Yes, it is an idea that can be implemented badly. It is an idea that can be abused badly. Maybe it is too much of a challenge for our government and our People to do correctly. Everyone knows that if something is too hard to do you go ahead and do it wrong anyway and live with it or don’t do anything at all.

I personally believe that the Federal government needs to return to their job of protecting the States and that governing power should be returned to the State and local government where it belongs, close to the People. The trouble is; how do you plug a black hole? Our Federal government is the black hole. The more power it acquires the stronger its position on acquiring more power and the less rights are in the hands of the People to take the porer back. The bigger the Federal government gets the harder it is to stop and more destructive it becomes.

In the penultimate paragraph of my previous post there was a reason for the order of items and a point I was driving home. A loose definition of liberty could be stated as; the political, social and economic rights afforded to the citizens of a country or nation. Firstly, the American People have allowed their political rights to be squeezed and diminished. This has been achieved through a slow, steady and systematic legislated transfer of ruling power to the Federal government where it is farthest removed from the People. Secondly, the American People have allowed the Federal government to regulate what goes on in my house. Moral turpitude, as you very well stated, was intended for local government or legislated at the State level at worst and was never intended to be legislated at a national level. But the Federal government of today regulates alcohol, tobacco, and firearms and even grants or denies funding for education which are all decidedly a local or state issues. Finally, economically, We the People find ourselves paying not just with our liberty but our hard earned money as well directly to the Federal government for everything we have allowed the Federal government to do.

We find ourselves in a sad state of affairs. The promise of status quo to a comfortable man, the promise of something better to the ambitions man, and the promise of the safety net, something for nothing, to the lazy man have pacified the People into acceptance.

If implemented with strict guidelines as to its exact intent and use for establishing citizenship in cases of voting and seeking employment the adoption of a national ID in and of itself forfeits no liberty nor does it make it easier for the Federal government to continue its current infringement on our rights. But you are correct that it could be abused. Airplanes can fail and crash killing people therefore no one should ever fly. The ownership of money is established through possession, therefore, once money is lost through carelessness or theft it is impossible to establish rightful ownership therefore money is a bad idea and a barter system should be reestablished.

I personally know of illegal aliens that have registered to vote, have voted, work in nice office jobs, have received medi-cal, unemployment, AFDC, WIC, food stamps, and lie on their taxes. I have reported illegal aliens and the illegal activities they were engaged in. I have reported employers and enablers. No action has ever been taken. Do you know why? You cannot prove the illegal alien status of an individual unless they entered the US legally and their VISA has expired or their name is on the FBI watch list. How can an illegal alien be identified if we cannot at least establish that they are not a citizen?

Most Americans believe we are safer because we are not allowed to drive around with loaded rifles or shotguns in our cars. But we have our laws to protect us, rite? Who needs guns when you have words on paper enforced and upheld by the infinitely corruptible? Sounds like all the protection I need.

We the People have become a fat crying baby holding in our hands a key labeled “liberty”. Standing next to us is G.W. and the Senate and they are waving a big round lollipop in front of with “Status Quo” on it. Too many out there are willing to make the trade and G.W. and the Senate will open the immigration flood-gates.

What is the answer mighty naysayer?

AI_BOT

Originally Posted by AI_BOT

More....

I can see where the road CAN lead. I will even attest that, if left to the politicians alone, that it would be likely. But how can an illegal alien be identified if we cannot at least establish that they are not a citizen.

I do not think that the national ID is a bad idea. Yes, it is an idea that can be implemented badly. It is an idea that can be abused badly. Maybe it is too much of a challenge for our government and our People to do correctly. Everyone knows that if something is too hard to do you go ahead and do it wrong anyway and live with it or don’t do anything at all.

So you prefer a wrong move to inaction? You prefer giving more power to an already out of control government as a means of making it do its job? Sorry, but that does not compute.

Originally Posted by AI_BOT

I personally believe that the Federal government needs to return to their job of protecting the States and that governing power should be returned to the State and local government where it belongs, close to the People. The trouble is; how do you plug a black hole? Our Federal government is the black hole. The more power it acquires the stronger its position on acquiring more power and the less rights are in the hands of the People to take the porer back. The bigger the Federal government gets the harder it is to stop and more destructive it becomes.

Yet you want to give it MORE power over our lives by registering us with a number so that it can monitor our every action?

I'll tell you how you plug a black hole: You rob it of its energy. In this case, the energy is tax revenue. Defund the Beast if you want to defeat it. The founding fathers understood that lesson.

Originally Posted by AI_BOT

In the penultimate paragraph of my previous post there was a reason for the order of items and a point I was driving home. A loose definition of liberty could be stated as; the political, social and economic rights afforded to the citizens of a country or nation. Firstly, the American People have allowed their political rights to be squeezed and diminished. This has been achieved through a slow, steady and systematic legislated transfer of ruling power to the Federal government where it is farthest removed from the People. Secondly, the American People have allowed the Federal government to regulate what goes on in my house. Moral turpitude, as you very well stated, was intended for local government or legislated at the State level at worst and was never intended to be legislated at a national level. But the Federal government of today regulates alcohol, tobacco, and firearms and even grants or denies funding for education which are all decidedly a local or state issues. Finally, economically, We the People find ourselves paying not just with our liberty but our hard earned money as well directly to the Federal government for everything we have allowed the Federal government to do.

As for the definition of Liberty, you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Liberty is not "afforded" the citizens in a free society. That definition applies only in a monarchy, empire, or other hegemony. Liberty is a self-evident gift of the Creator, and it is afforded by no man, but rather demanded by the freemen of those they would grant the privilege of governance. As soon as you make Liberty passive, you have killed it.

As for the rest of this paragraph, you again appear to contradict yourself when you cite accumulation of power by the federal government as the key cause for the ruination of our freedoms, even as you advocate granting that same entity the power to demand registration and marking of each of us so that we may be more easily tracked and controlled. This paragraph would have been a breakthrough had you not been using it to defend granting the federal Beast even more power!

Originally Posted by AI_BOT

We find ourselves in a sad state of affairs. The promise of status quo to a comfortable man, the promise of something better to the ambitions man, and the promise of the safety net, something for nothing, to the lazy man have pacified the People into acceptance.

If implemented with strict guidelines as to its exact intent and use for establishing citizenship in cases of voting and seeking employment the adoption of a national ID in and of itself forfeits no liberty nor does it make it easier for the Federal government to continue its current infringement on our rights. But you are correct that it could be abused. Airplanes can fail and crash killing people therefore no one should ever fly. The ownership of money is established through possession, therefore, once money is lost through carelessness or theft it is impossible to establish rightful ownership therefore money is a bad idea and a barter system should be reestablished.

Let's examine the highlighted section in light of actual history. Surely you are aware that before passing the Social Security Act, Congress demanded and received assurances from the FDR administration that the SSN would never be used for ANYTHING but application for SS benefits. They even demanded that the card carry a disclaimer saying that it was not to be used for identification purposes. Hmmm... How well did that promise hold up? Today, that "innocent" little number is required for everything from paying taxes to getting a loan or opening a bank account to registering kids for school to obtaining a state drivers license (and that just starts the list).

Now, tell me again how we can trust the government to confine a universal ID to a narrow and specific purpose...

Originally Posted by AI_BOT

I personally know of illegal aliens that have registered to vote, have voted, work in nice office jobs, have received medi-cal, unemployment, AFDC, WIC, food stamps, and lie on their taxes. I have reported illegal aliens and the illegal activities they were engaged in. I have reported employers and enablers. No action has ever been taken. Do you know why? You cannot prove the illegal alien status of an individual unless they entered the US legally and their VISA has expired or their name is on the FBI watch list. How can an illegal alien be identified if we cannot at least establish that they are not a citizen?

So, again, because the federal government has demonstrated its utter unreliability and incompetence to handle the most fundamental of tasks with which it is charged, you want to grant them even MORE power over our lives? How is that logical?

Originally Posted by AI_BOT

Most Americans believe we are safer because we are not allowed to drive around with loaded rifles or shotguns in our cars. But we have our laws to protect us, rite? Who needs guns when you have words on paper enforced and upheld by the infinitely corruptible? Sounds like all the protection I need.

We the People have become a fat crying baby holding in our hands a key labeled “liberty”. Standing next to us is G.W. and the Senate and they are waving a big round lollipop in front of with “Status Quo” on it. Too many out there are willing to make the trade and G.W. and the Senate will open the immigration flood-gates.

What is the answer mighty naysayer?

AI_BOT

So again, you contradict yourself. You mockingly (though correctly) state that we have become far too reliant on a federal government that has betrayed us, and so your utterly illogical answer is to allow the same fatally flawed government to control a new federal ID. INSANITY!

Let me ask you this: If you take your car to a shop and the mechanic fails to fix the problem you took it in for but does thousands of dollars in unnecessary work that you did not authorize him to do and gives your car stereo to a passing homeless guy, do you give that mechanic more of your money in hopes that he'll get it right the next time or do you find yourself another mechanic?

I KNEW on 9/12/01, that this horror was going to give them the EXCUSE to push a national ID. Oh, my friends, the CFR is calling you. The UN wants YOU.

And I KNEW that Americans would cower in fear and allow these despots to further take our freedoms away!

Let them ID ILLEGALS.........foreigners who enter this country in any manner.........but I am AMERICAN and I don't need to be ID'd.

Why on God's green earth are people willing to give, give, give up little pieces of their FREEDOM until we come to a police state? WHY?

Then there's that all to often thrown around phrase, "I don't mind, why should I care? I've done nothing to hide!"

PATOOEY! Let them take their ID and shove it in an inconvenient place.
What do I have to fear that Americans should need an ID? What? Are they going to pull off another catastrophe? Do you really think that an ID will prevent it? Or do you think that it will be a wonderful idea to eventually have to go through check points and show your ID?

Don't kid yourselves. This is leading down a devastating road

Originally Posted by AI_BOT

America is no longer a Sovereign Nation.

In its meaning “sovereign” is stated as: independent, self-governing and not ruled by any other state. And in this description we, as a nation, are lacking. Our government officials who have sworn themselves to act as the voice of the People they represent are operating in direct opposition of this nation’s sovereignty with every speech they make and every vote they cast that is not in line with the will of the People. The fact that officials of foreign governments have more sway with our president, senators, representatives, and state governments and officials than the voice of the majority of lawful voting citizens of this nation is a travesty and makes a mockery of the beliefs and efforts of the Founding Fathers.

This nation has and continues to provide a means for peoples of this world we share to come and be a part of the American Dream. However, in contrast to what is allowed by law, our government has turned a blind eye to those who would enter our country illegally for whatever reason. The argument that these people can do better for themselves and their families here than where they come from, and therefore they are not doing anything wrong, is insane. The mere fact that they are here without the expressed approval of the American People leads to the undeniable fact that their presence here is contrary to what is allowed by law. Action contrary to what is allowed by law is illegal activity. A person found to be engaging in action contrary to the law is a criminal. There is no other way of seeing this. Being a person, a human being, a member of the World Community is not illegal. Being in a particular place at a particular time that is against what is allowed by law is illegal. A person in my house without my expressed permission is in violation of the law. Their presence is illegal and is referred to as trespassing.

Until every American Citizen in need of work has a job no illegal alien should have one. Until all the children of American Citizens have been fed, clothed, protected and educated no child of an illegal alien should have more or better. I do not deny that basic humanitarian aid must be administered to any person in our country that is in need, however, identity and country of origin for non-citizens in this country must be established prior to release of any person receiving care so that the individual who received care or their government can provide reimbursement for the services provided.

To this end I would agree with those who say we need a National Registry, a means of absolutely identifying any individual as a citizen of the United States of America. With this we could make it so that non-citizens would not be allowed to rent housing or transportation beyond the time allotted on their VISA and strict penalties and fines could be levied against those found to be breaking the law including those renting or leasing housing and/or transportation to illegal aliens.

Deportation costs should be charged back to the country of origin and they in turn should work out how to extract reimbursement from their returned citizen through any means they see fit. Foreign nationals for whom we can not establish a documented nationality or who are refused by their respective government for lack of documentation shall be considered a “person without a country” and will be detained by the U.S. Government in a specially designed worker program wherein detainees will work for room-and-board building government projects like the border wall. Detainees will have the right to life, to adequate food (which they can grow themselves), a fair day’s work, and medical attention on par with the world average. Procreation will not be allowed in detention; therefore, men and women will need to be separated in different work groups. This would eliminate the possibility of the establishment of a permanent sub-culture of “people without a country” not unlike the theoretical “welfare state”. This would also be a good deterrent to possible illegal immigrants or would at least ensure incoming illegal immigrants would have well documented identities. This program should be designed in a way to be self-sustaining where the products and services of the detainees can be generate enough revenue to sustain it and, if possible, relieve part of the average American citizen’s tax burden. I would have no problem spending the same amount of money tomorrow for a head of lettuce as I spend today but knowing that, instead of farm subsidies of cash, that the government paid farm land owners a fair lease value for their land and worked it with this free labor force.

Legal action should be initiated by the American People against all illegal aliens and all U.S. government officials that support them. The illegal aliens should be accused of trespassing by having entered the property of the People without permission, having caused injury to the People, having caused injury to the property of the People, having caused injury to the rights and privileges of the People, and having intruded upon the time and mindshare of the representatives of the People thereby causing what should be Our government, the voice of the People, to be their government, the voice of the illegal foreign national minority, the voice of criminals, the voice of terrorists. The illegal aliens and government officials that support them should be accused of inciting an act of war against the People of the United States of America. The illegal aliens have invaded our land and have trespassed upon the rights of all American citizens. Now they are not only illegally assuming those rights and privileges they are demanding the legal recognition that it is indeed their right to do so. Our government officials that have ignored the sovereignty of our nation for so long and now support the illegal aliens in any way and/or refuse to enforce the current law of the People indeed support this act of war upon the People. For this they should be labeled and treated as traitors to the government of the United States of America during a War. For what is our government without the People? Nothing! For the government of the United States of America was, is and shall be of the People, for the People and by the People and to operate in opposition of this is to operate against America.

The American People are loosing “Government of the People, for the People, and by the People” with platform politics, foreign influences, special interests, and politics as usual. No platform will give you exactly what you want. And even if they lay claim that they will you will soon loose when the special interests and lobbyists add their influence. In the end your vote is for the lesser of two evils, for the candidate most closely aligned with your core beliefs. But then the politicians say one thing to get your vote then do something different once elected. And we are told it is simply “politics” and one is sometimes needed to give a little to gain a little. The whole “scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours” mentality of politicking does not emanate from the People. Politicians have decided that they have been elected to decide what is best for the “people”. That it is their choice to trade on the desires of the “people” that support one issue to placate the “people” on another issue saying “I had to give up on this to win support for the other”. But make no mistake about it, the will of the People is never even considered. There should be no choice outside the will of the People! If the People want something then they should be told upfront what it will cost them and then it should be put to the People to decide. The citizens who support an idea but do not like what it will cost them will need to think long and hard about their decision. But make no mistake about it, in the end the People should decide because it is the People who will pay.

Just like the original Patriots of this nation we must cut our ties with and withhold support from any government operating on Our behalf that refuses to represent the will of the People. We can not allow an out-of-control government that taxes Us and no longer represents the People.

NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!

The fact that Our government is acting outside the will of the People is undeniable on the issue of illegal immigration. For this reason it is no longer the American government and should not be supported by the American People. What will it take for the American People to open Our eyes and understand that this government, bent on winning votes from any minority group of “people” without regard to the People, is not the government of the United States of America established by the People? What will the People loose next? Our Social Security? Wait, they already gave that away! Social Security no longer belongs to the People; now it belongs to the “people”.

Some of you would like to block my logic with screams of “Racist”. The fact is that this claim is absurd. I am an American and believe that it is Our duty to protect the sovereignty of Our nation. Our nation is established and recognized by the World as having one law to govern its People, one government to represent its People, an established area and borders to hold its People, and one People to be known and counted as Americans. I welcome each and every American to stand with me and be counted on every issue. I even welcome each and every American who takes an opposing viewpoint to mine to stand and be counted. I welcome anyone who is a citizen that is an American first and proud of their heritage second. It is our right as citizens of this nation to take a stand for what we believe and be counted. But the will of the People can not be ignored. This is why we raise our voices to be counted. It is the whole idea on which our country is founded. If you are not in the majority on an issue, well, let the will of the People be done. Accept this and our government works as intended. But, if the will of the People, the majority, is ignored and politicians pander and bend to the will of the “people”, the minority, then we are truly lost as a nation.

A Concerned Neighbor,
Rancho Santa Margarita[/b]

This should be sent to the Senate and the Congress, Outstanding AI BOT

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

So you prefer a wrong move to inaction?...

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Yet you want to give it MORE power over our lives by registering us with a number so that it can monitor our every action?

Here you have clearly added your own idea, the idea of assured misuse and abuse and the usrption of our right to privacy, to my idea of identification. We are already identified. You have a drivers license or State ID card so surly the government is already using this to monitor your every action and rob you of your rights. The problem is that illegals have drivers licenses and State issued ID cards to.

You assume that a national ID must, to establish national citizenship, be issued, monitored, controlled and abused by the Federal government. I simply require something with adequate assurance that only citizens will be issued State drivers licenses or ID cards and that the burden to prove citizenship is standard and applied accross all states. Don't call my idea bad or wrong because YOU read into it only what you want to.

So, if the ID's issued by one State is a polaroid photo stapled to a type written piece of paper then that is fine by you, it is that States' problem. That is until there are millions of illegals in your State with false IDs from the State with their head up there arse.

But you do not want any ID of any sort. You want to be Johnny Appleseed with a pot for a hat and rifle in hand wandering this great land as a freeman. Not tied to a name, unidetifiable, and answering to no man.

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

As for the definition of Liberty, you are wrong, wrong, wrong. Liberty is not "afforded" the citizens in a free society. That definition applies only in a monarchy, empire, or other hegemony. Liberty is a self-evident gift of the Creator, and it is afforded by no man, but rather demanded by the freemen of those they would grant the privilege of governance. As soon as you make Liberty passive, you have killed it.

So the Creator has afforded us the gift of Liberty. My definition did not define WHO afforded the rights to the People. You should learn to read. I defined the word "liberty" you want to defind the American ideology of Liberty. Apples to oranges.

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

As for the rest of this paragraph, you again appear to contradict yourself when you cite accumulation of power by the federal government as the key cause for the ruination of our freedoms, even as you advocate granting that same entity the power to demand registration and marking of each of us so that we may be more easily tracked and controlled. This paragraph would have been a breakthrough had you not been using it to defend granting the federal Beast even more power!

Again, your misrepresentation of my ideas. Please address strictly what I have outlined, and, is something is not defined clerly enough then ask for clarification. Do not invent issues outside my intentions.

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Now, tell me again how we can trust the government to confine a universal ID to a narrow and specific purpose...

It is not a matter of trust. It is a matter legislating a set of commen sense guideline for establishing the verification of citizenship and requiring that the States issue IDs only to citizens. In the case of lawful permanent residents and migrants in the US on work VISAs the States can issue Drivers Permits which need to bee unique to the State ID and do not establish citizenship. It would need to be mandated that the States would work together to flesh out all the other details together and that the Federal government would only provide oversight to ensure the program is indeed implemented and that the States do not drop the ball and remain accountable to the People.

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

So, again, because the federal government has demonstrated its utter unreliability and incompetence to handle the most fundamental of tasks with which it is charged, you want to grant them even MORE power over our lives? How is that logical?

Again I do not see, and you have not quantified, exactly how this will grant more POWER over our lives. The power to do WHAT exactly? Exactly HOW is that power granted in my ideology? It problem is not in my idea but in your own fear that the People will not be vigilent and will allow here what our lack of vigilence allowed with the SSN. Either that or you believe that even a vigilent People is unable to hold our government accountable.

If you need work done on your house and you check a contractor's State issued ID please rest assured that that ID is as good for establishing identity and citizenship as a bar napkin with "My name is Bob" written upon it in crayon. Oh wait, you would have us abuse our own abusive system and verify the validity of the invalid SSN with the corrupt FED and still be no further from the bar napkin. Back to Johnny Appleseed and no accountability.

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

So again, you contradict yourself. You mockingly (though correctly) state that we have become far too reliant on a federal government that has betrayed us, and so your utterly illogical answer is to allow the same fatally flawed government to control a new federal ID. INSANITY!

Federal ID? YOU said FEDERAL ID, not me. Don't put words into my mouth. Again, read my words, literally. Do not make assumptions. If it is unclear then ask.

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Let me ask you this: If you take your car to a shop and the mechanic fails to fix the problem you took it in for but does thousands of dollars in unnecessary work that you did not authorize him to do and gives your car stereo to a passing homeless guy, do you give that mechanic more of your money in hopes that he'll get it right the next time or do you find yourself another mechanic?

Please clear something up for me: Are you saying that the solution is to dissolve or, if necessary, to remove by force the Federal government of the United States of America to then reestablish a correct and equitable replacement opperating under the precepts, ideals and guidlines of the Founding Fathers? I assume that is your intent, just making sure. It is not a bad idea but I do not think it would be the best solution. I do not believe our Federal government would willingly self-correct, I mean, what government would cut off its body to save the head just because it is demanded by the People? Or do you intend to expatriate yourself to Canada?

AI_BOT, most of your above response makes no sense to me.

For starters, you attempt to make an issue of my characterization of a national ID as a federal ID. What the hell? Who do you THINK will administer a national ID? Of course it is a federal ID by definition and in fact.

You spend most of your rebuttal arguing against the certainty that such an ID will be expanded and eventually abused, yet I have shown by clear example how the previous nearest thing to this national ID was in fact expanded not only FAR beyond its originally intended scope, but in clear contradiction to the careful prohibitions against such expansion demanded by those legislators who approved it. History PROVES this tendency, while you base your contrary contention on nothing more than hope. Given a historical evidence against wishful thinking, I will predicate my opinions upon the historical evidence every time.

Lastly, your idea that the federal government is likely to "self-correct" is also evidenciary of a lack of historical education on your part, and those who fail to understand the lessons of history are, after all, doomed to repeat them. I can list scores of governments that fell into tyranny and corruption and continued in that mode until conquered by outsiders or overthrown by their own people. Can you provide me with two examples of governments that "self-corrected" without a coup d'etat or regime change? Can you even name one?

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

For starters, you attempt to make an issue of my characterization of a national ID as a federal ID. What the hell? Who do you THINK will administer a national ID? Of course it is a federal ID by definition and in fact.

Again you assume that by national ID it is my intent for a Federally issued, managed and monitored system. Federally regulated guidelines enforced by and between States to ensure that State IDs meet a national standard that these IDs are only issued to citizens is my idea of a national ID. It could be Federally mandated minimum standard and still be run by the States. The States can work together and monitor each other to assure proper implementation and adherance to the requirements. Why would I want a new Federal bureaucracy with far reaching arms into every county of every state? That would be insane, and again, it is SOOOOO not my intent. I do not think you actually read what I write.

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

You spend most of your rebuttal arguing against the certainty that such an ID will be expanded and eventually abused, yet I have shown by clear example how the previous nearest thing to this national ID was in fact expanded not only FAR beyond its originally intended scope, but in clear contradiction to the careful prohibitions against such expansion demanded by those legislators who approved it. History PROVES this tendency, while you base your contrary contention on nothing more than hope. Given a historical evidence against wishful thinking, I will predicate my opinions upon the historical evidence every time.

By your undeniable PROOF of ONE it is not even worth tearing down the government and building it anew because any government built on the precepts of our Founding Fathers is doomed to suffer tragedy we currently endure or worse. The tragedy that no People, no matter how dilligent, can controll or hold accountable any government. The tragedy that no People, no matter how united they may be on any one issue, will be fundamentally fractured by race, culture, language, and ideology and that these fractures will ultimetly be their undoing. The tragedy that no nation has, or will be able in the future, to effectivly controll its borders and controll imigration or expartiatism. Look at how the creation of the European Union has depressed salaries in eastern European nations when they received masses of western European migrant workers. There is great unrest in the EU now over the legalized migrant workers. Even the greatest nations have fallen, torn apart from the inside out, by the hands of people they willingly accepted.

Your words:

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Lastly, your idea that the federal government is likely to "self-correct" is also evidenciary of a lack ...

Was in response to my words:

Originally Posted by AI_BOT

I do not believe our Federal government would willingly self-correct...

Again you clearly fail to read MY words.

The fact is, yes, I do still hold hope that the People can force a return to what was intended by the FF without the need to use force. If you do not have the numbers to change government through non-violent means then you do not have the numbers to take it by force.

Article IV

Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence.

Combine that with this:

Article III

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

Our Senate and President by not removing an invading force of foreign nationals and adhering to them, giving them aid and comfort have set a clear path for the American People.

AI_BOT

AI_BOT, I think I will leave my previous responses to stand on their own merit. We are simply rehashing the same argument, which is your choice to trust the government vs. my premise that it is demonstrably untrustworthy. I take comfort in the fact that the founders of this nation shared my opinion to the extent that they counselled eternal vigilance. At the same time I find little comfort in how few of my fellow Americans heed their warnings.

I can name a country that tried to self correct, The Soviet Union. Or maybe they just imploded.
Maybe a national identification card and microchips are a little 1984ish. But I don't think that a tamper proof (or very hard to duplicate) Social Security card is too much to ask for.