Thread: Concerns about the Real ID Act

I don't weigh in here much unless the issue is really important to me. This one is. IMHO, FRT is a technology that will be overtaken soon (a few years) by improved technologies. Currently, the only problem I have with FRT is its reliability and based on what I've read, it's very reliable but not 100%. Fingerprints now have been overtaken by DNA signatures but remain as a valuable tool for law enforcement to get the bad guys. I may be a bit extreme, but I see nothing untoward about requiring DNA samples for every international traveler to or from anywhere.

When my family and I vacationed out of the country, we submitted to all manner of identification methods and didn't complain. I believe we were not offended because we don't hide under rocks and sneak into and out of foreign countries hoping to break the laws and not get caught. We're also comfortable with our system which contains safeguards against misidentification and identity theft. We have faith that if we're misidentified, we'll be able to prove the error and be on our way. If we're inconvenienced, we believe our vindication will improve the system in the end.

Because criminals, poor illegal alien lawn cutters included, have no recorded identities (or many of them), no one has a good method for knowing anything about them. Therefore, again IMHO, they must be subjected to clear biometric identification when they enter a nation such as the US. We've been stonewalling this issue for too long and now have a disaster on our hands.

Originally Posted by BobC

To arouse that kind of attention I'd have to have already done something.

You already have done something. You have come to this site and expressed political views which are opposed to the open border policy. What will be the thing tomorrow that the government will decide is worth monitoring? Those who advocate private gun ownership perhaps? Those who oppose abortion and euthanasia? Those who simply make a statement such as many of us have at one time or another like "I am fed up.. it is about time for a revolt" or even less obvious statements as that?

When SSN's were enacted, it was promised that it would NEVER be used for anything except social security. Those who warned that it would go further were deemed as paranoid. I think history has vindicated those "paranoid" people quite well, as that number is now used for virtually everything you do. I can think of NOTHING which the government has enacted, promising that it would be limited to just this or that, that eventually they did not go further.

We may accept this, then our kids grow up in a society with this card. By the time our kids are grown, the ID will be such a normal fact of life to our kids, that when they expand what it is used for, just a little bit, the kids will not raise much objection. 10 years later, it will be expanded even more.. to go after political dissidents, or anyone else the govt at that time deems to be a threat... and if terrorism and illegal immigrants are no longer the threat, the govt will find one.

Many of the people on here who SUPPORT this thing have already admitted that the government has "already collected information on you and abrogated your rights"... so this is supposed to make me feel better about letting them do it even MORE? By that admission they have already conceded the governments tendancy to take things WAY beyond what it was originally intended, so why should we believe that NOW, on THIS, they will not go further than they say they currently intend? History proves they can and WILL go beyond what they currently say they wish to use it for. If, as you say, the government finds it so easy to gather all the information together anyway, then there is no need for them to have this is there? If this changes nothing, then it is a waste of time and money.

Some have argued such things as "they cannot monitor all your phone calls of every citizen", but in fact, they already DO. Some have said "The nazis and Soviets found that it took too many people to monitor everyone"... but they did not have the technology available that we do now. Your conversations ARE monitored, by computers, which listen and flag conversations in which certain phrases are spoken, or, in the case of this conversation, typed. I would be willing to bet that WE are already being watched, right here on this site. Threat assessments of each of us are already being done.. and those of us who oppose this act are probably tagged for further observation by the automated monitoring systems of the NSA.

Some of you may not like hearing about the Nazis.. I have seen it written "this is 2005, not 1940". it does not matter if we are citing things from 5, 20, 100, or 2000 years ago.. the nature of people, especially people in POWER, has not changed one tiniest bit. All that has changed is those types now have tools available to them that the tyrants and monsters of history would have LOVED to have. If our "advancement" has done anything, it has given us even MORE reason to be concerned than the people of pre-nazi germany ever had.

And all of this risk, for something which will do NOTHING to deal with the illegal immigration problem. This is a scam, to grant the govt more powers to monitor anyone who the government deems to be a threat, for any reason... and at the same time conning a lot of you into believing they have actually done something about illegal immigration, so that you will go away and not bother them about Illegal immigration anymore. Do you honestly believe GWB will support this if it IS going to result in removing illegal aliens from our workforce? Dream on.

Those who have reason to fear this are not just illegal aliens, and criminals... it is ANYONE who might find themselves with views which are in opposition to the govt, now and in the future.

"Those who fail to learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat it ."

ALIPAC--we were able to control are borders with our current forms of ID before Photoshop came along. As technology improves, so does fraud. If we don't keep up, we will lose.

I know FR Tech sounds creepy but it's the future. Border Patrol people I've spoken to have told me they've arrested illegals who had ID for something like 17 different personas. The fake ID business is HUGE. The Tyson Chickens of the world stand back and plead ignorance--they whine and ask how can they possibly be expected to know a fake ID when they see it? So a Real ID which is really hard to fake is a great step forward and it will give Tyson Chicken no wriggle room.

Does anyone think FRT is a form of racial profiling, anymore than taking a fingerprint or DNA for identification? I'm just curious & confused.

It is more than creepy.. it is the first step toward tyrrany.

I feel much more threatened by a government with broad powers of surveillance of American citizens, than I feel by terrorists, drug dealers and smugglers, illegal aliens, or any other criminals.

If ending illegal immigration requires this, then I am about to join the Open Borders lobby.

oh for god's sake.

The main reason we have an illegal immigration problem is that the President's administration has ordered our border patrol to catch and release crossers. The border has been opened already.

The same executive offices have failed to enforce our laws against corporations that hire illegal labor. The same executive allows 6-10 thousand illegals to enter each night while Americans are put through strip searches in airports.

The same executive agencies fail to respond to the will of over 80 percent of us that want our laws enforced. We apparently have little to no control over the situation.

I'm all for restricting licenses from illegals, but do we really want to give more power and control to the government at a time that we have no say? Do we want to give more power and control to a government and corporations that are acting outside of the law and the constitution as it is?

What if we fail in our mission to provide a political solution to this loss of control of our own government and we find ourselves in 5 years with twice as many illegal aliens or legalized 3rd worlders that the public did not want in America?

Why is this our first step?

W

ALIPAC Biometrics Poll

http://www.alipac.us/survey-results-18-thread-1-0.html

BobC:

This is the opinion statement we issued on Real ID at the request of Congressional Quarterly. I believe that if we had endorsed Real ID we would have lost at least 1/3 of our founding members.

http://www.alipac.us/article194.html

Originally Posted by DonQuixote

It is more than creepy.. it is the first step toward tyrrany.
I feel much more threatened by a government with broad powers of surveillance of American citizens, than I feel by terrorists, drug dealers and smugglers, illegal aliens, or any other criminals.
If ending illegal immigration requires this, then I am about to join the Open Borders lobby.

IT IS VERY CREEPY. IT'S LIKE A BAD SCIENCE-FICTION -HORROR MOVIE. BUT, I DON'T THINK THIS WOULD DRIVE ME INTO JOINING UP WITH THE OPEN BORDER LOBBY.

Any, and all, information that is available on you can be in the hands of the government in moments, or weeks. When they want it, they can get it.

Facial reconition may not be popular when large groups of people can be scanned in the process of looking for bad guys. But the citizen population is demanding that on an hoursly basis. If we have open border.. that reconition technique is going to be used. If we have closed border, that reconition device is going to be used. I prefer fingerprints for the I.D. Card.. I will take anything I can get because that information is available to the Federal Government when they want it. But too.. it is ALSO available, almost entirely, to anyone with the latest version of the software .. Spy, or Detective.

The data collected on you is sometimes significant. But rather than being used by law enforcement, it is used to prevent fraud. And fraud is staggering out there.. on Uncle Sam. And so, a great deal of what is happening will catch illegal aliens, but it will also catch people who are criminals in our society. We will have smaller tax bills when it happens to.

Can we do anything about this movement of information to the Federal Government. Nope. But that same informtion is in the hands of private enterprise bidding the lowest bid on accumulation of that data. Soooo.... that outfit hires the ... cheap.. key punchers and the data errors are one in ten rather than one in a thousand. Press enter with the wrong data, and suddenly ButterBean can become one of the millionair Oligarchy in Russia now on his plane asking for 2 mill from his bank in Switzerland. Cheap.. lowest bidder key punchers can do every so much. Been there... done that.

Move that data base over to the Federal Government and you and I can look at it. We can examine the information on the data base, and we can change it. And it will stay changed too. Make that the only... the only legal data base on us, and suddenly lots of errors get cured!!
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We have a Bill of Rights that protects us very well. It is neither fragial, or whimsical. It works. It will work in this circumstance too and I support the Bill of Rights because it will proved, once again, forge proof documents that we must have as a society.

If someone wants to change this over to fingerprints.. fine. No problem.. but some form of I.D. has to come forward because to function as a society, we need reliable I.D.

And the Social Security Numbers? That card, and the SS information is not used, nor is accessable to anyone. But the NUMBER is used becaise it is the ONLY form of identitication that covered all the states. We had to have it.. we had to have some way to find people who moved out of state, and that SSN was the way we have done it until the photograph became vulnerable to crooks, thugs, and criminals.

Real I.D., here we come. I support that too.

I say you and I can look at it and change that information.

The owner of the record can look at it, and change the information. THAT is the key to happiness.