Thread: Illegals could get billions in social security

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/J..._of_the_border

Social Security Heading South of the BorderBy Joel Mowbray
Saturday, January 11, 2003


If top officials at the State Department and Social Security Administration have their way, up to $345 billion—or more—could be siphoned from the Social Security “trust fund” over the couple decades, mostly to pay benefits to Mexican citizens who worked illegally in the United States.

The ill-conceived plan was hatched as part of an accord currently being negotiated with Mexico to help align its social-security system with America’s. The U.S. already has similar agreements with 20 nations, mostly in Europe, known as Totalization Agreements.

“Totalization” is government-speak for combining, or "totalizing", the Social Security taxes paid into America’s and a foreign country’s respective systems—which allows people who split their careers between two countries to get a harmonized retirement benefit from the two governments. When media reports of the Mexico pact surfaced last month, the cost was pegged at hundreds of millions of dollars per year, to be paid out to roughly 37,000 Mexican citizens living legally in the U.S.

But not mentioned is how the accord with Mexico, as now written, would differ from existing agreements in one key respect: illegal aliens from Mexico would also become eligible for Social Security benefits, which would force costs to skyrocket. Under current law, people who worked illegally in the United States can only receive Social Security benefits based on taxes paid during that time by becoming citizens or permanent legal residents.

Once living lawfully in the U.S., though, someone can receive benefits based on work performed while in the country illegally.

The Totalization Agreement with Mexico, however, would make illegal aliens from that country eligible for the same treatment under Social Security as U.S. citizens—without ever becoming legal residents or citizens.

Although the press office from the Social Security Administration (SSA) cautions, “Discussions are still in the preliminary stages,” government sources familiar with the negotiations say that there has been agreement on most significant issues—including the expansion of eligibility for illegal aliens.

An internal SSA memo also indicates that the pact will allow illegal aliens to qualify for Social Security benefits: “Mexican nationals working illegally in the U.S. can currently become entitled to benefits if they have made payments to the Trust Fund that meet the vesting requirements.

The Totalization Agreement would include this population of Mexican workers within the overall population of workers covered by this agreement.” With anywhere from 7 to 11 million illegal aliens in the U.S.—the majority of whom are from Mexico—including illegals in the pact would cost many more billions of dollars per year.

The best indicator of how much illegals would receive in benefits would be the amount they have paid in over the years. Since 1990, the amount of Social Security taxes paid into the Earnings Suspense File (ESF)—which consists mostly of sums contributed by illegal aliens—has been increasing rapidly, for a total of nearly $300 billion during that time span, according to SSA's own figures. (Like all government “trust funds,” there’s no money in the ESF, just an accounting of money.)

In Social Security's entire history, some $345 billion in Social Security taxes have been paid under bogus or non-work Social Security numbers, the hallmark of taxes paid by illegal aliens. Some argue that illegal aliens deserve benefits since they already pay Social Security taxes, the fact is that allowing illegals to tap into the entitlement—aside from rewarding illegal behavior—substantially undermine the financial ability to “pay” for a transition to personal account-based reform if the money that would have gone to the accounts is instead funneled to illegal aliens because of the Totalization Agreement.

Finals negotiations—which are overseen by State, but handled on the ground by technocrats from SSA—could be finalized next month, according to an internal SSA memo. And an internal State Department memo indicates that the accord could be implemented as early as this fall. Although the White House would no doubt love to shower Mexico with affection, officials there are not aware of the true size and scope of the agreement—nor is Congress, which has the final say.

A Totalization Agreement with Mexico similar to the others—meaning no inclusion of illegals—would actually be a wise move. Such a deal would allow Mexican citizens who play by the rules to take full advantage of Social Security taxes paid both here and south of the border. But as things stand right now, it is officials at State and SSA who are not playing by the rules—and Congress and the White House should not play along.

SOCIAL SECURITY
News Release

United States and Mexico Sign Social Security Agreement
Agreement to Benefit U.S. Workers and Employers (Aquí en Español)
Jo Anne Barnhart, Commissioner of Social Security, signed an agreement today with Dr. Santiago Levy Algazi, Director General, Mexican Social Security Institute, that will remove from U.S. citizens working for U.S. companies in Mexico the burden of paying social security taxes to both countries. The agreement also will remove the double taxation requirement for Mexican citizens working for Mexican companies in the United States. “This agreement eliminates a serious and unnecessary impediment to American and Mexican businesses and their employees,” Commissioner Barnhart stated. “Just as important, it promotes equity and fairness for workers who divide their careers between our two countries.”
Currently, U.S. companies that employ U.S. citizens in Mexico are required to contribute to both the U.S. and Mexican social security systems. When the agreement takes effect, U.S. and Mexican employers and their employees will contribute to either the U.S. or Mexican social security systems, but not both. This will result in approximately 3,000 U.S. workers and their employers sharing in tax savings of $140 million over the first five years of the agreement. The agreement also will improve social security protection for people who work in both countries. At present, some workers who have divided their careers between the United States and Mexico fail to qualify for social security benefits from one or both countries because they do not meet minimum eligibility requirements. Under the agreement it will be possible for workers and their family members to qualify for pro-rated U.S. or Mexican benefits based on combined credits from both countries. This will result in approximately 50,000 U.S. and Mexican workers receiving benefits after the first five years of the agreement.
The agreement must be reviewed by the U.S. Congress and approved by the Mexican Senate before it can take effect. The United States has similar social security agreements with 20 other countries, including Australia, Canada, Chile, South Korea and nearly every country in Western Europe. In addition, the U.S. signed a social security agreement with Japan in February 2004, which is expected to take effect in late 2005NOTE TO CORRESPONDENTS: A fact sheet providing more information about the Social Security agreement between the U.S. and Mexico is attached. To find out more about agreements with other countries go to http://www.socialsecurity.gov/international/.NOTE TO CORRESPONDENTS: A fact sheet providing more information about the Social Security agreement between the U.S. and Mexico is attached. To find out more about agreements with other countries go to http://www.socialsecurity.gov/international/..

http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/pr/USand ... pr-alt.htm

Originally Posted by xanadu

My question is; can they collect from the stolen social security numbers they have worked under.

THAT is a provacative question.

They don't seem to have the ability to discern if more than one person is reporting on the same number or at a minimum they don't have the ablity to notify the victim.

But you can be damn sure skippy that when it comes to writing out checks they WILL have the ability and will only pay one. The question is which one? Can you imagine the night mare for an elderly person?

The money paid by more than one worker goes into a "suspense fund." You are correct that they're not setup to discern who paid in what. Therefore, no one receives a payout on amounts suspended. Perhaps this fact caused the attention that ID theft got at the Swift raids? Imagine getting to retirement and finding a large portion of your earnings suspended. Illegals and advocates whine about paying taxes, but you never hear how they destroyed the retirement of the Social Security number's real owner.

An Article Here

Why does it seem about every direction I turn this president seems bent on destroying this country?
John and Ken (640am) talked with Brad Phillips about this tonight for about an hour. Which means thousands of people in southern CA now know about this insanity.
Brad said the president has not yet signed this, not sure of the steps involved, but we did enter into an agreement with Mexico to do this a few yrs ago. Guess he's waiting for his amnesty bill first.
Basically these totalization agreements are a good thing to avoid duplicate taxation but only with countries who have a similar economic situation which Mexico does not have.
Let's just see how the media responds. Obviously it should be big major news.
This issue would affect every family in America.

Originally Posted by jean

Why does it seem about every direction I turn this president seems bent on destroying this country?

Bush wants a North American Union. He wants big businiess to have the cheapest labor possible and that means either using illegal labor here in the US or the corporation itself actually moving overseas. Either way it's good for him. It's bad for us, but who ever said Bush actually cared about the average working american?

A copy of the actual document is available for download on TREA's website:

http://www.tscl.org/NewContent/102800.asp

But from a posted link I saw on another forum Bush has some plans for Wednesday:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1052775/posts

Bush to Give Illegals SS Benefits January 06 2004 03:29:00 PM EST

President Bush is set to present his immigration proposal Wednesday. WASHINGTON, Jan 06, 2004 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- President Bush wants to let some of the eight million illegal aliens in the United States move toward legal status without penalty -- but with benefits. His proposals, part of a sweeping change in U.S. immigration policy, will be revealed Wednesday, the Washington Times reported.

Bush will propose that illegal aliens from Mexico, and possibly other countries, who pay U.S. Social Security taxes, but provide false identification numbers, be allowed to collect benefits.

"The president has long talked about the importance of having an immigration policy that matches willing workers with willing employers," said White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan Monday.

The plan is expected to be opposed by Republicans on Capitol Hill, but it will be embraced by Mexican President Vicente Fox when he meets Bush during a Jan. 12-14 meeting in Monterrey, Mexico.

The changes have long been advocated by Fox, whose close relationship with Bush has been strained since border security efforts were beefed up after the Sept. 11 attacks and since Mexico refused to support the U.S.-led war in Iraq.

Fox said the plan would allow Mexicans "to go and come each year as many times as they want, without problems, so that they can work with documents in the United States."

Bush needs to be flooded with calls and faxes!!!!

vMy question is; can they collect from the stolen social security numbers they have worked under.

The answer is, YES. They will be paid "retro active" for all of the work they did in the US. whether it was Legal or Illegal.

But it`s not a sure thing yet.

Hawkeye wrote

Bush wants a North American Union. He wants big businiess to have the cheapest labor possible and that means either using illegal labor here in the US or the corporation itself actually moving overseas. Either way it's good for him. It's bad for us, but who ever said Bush actually cared about the average working american?

China is the problem. Here in the US, we have viable economy in a free society that has thrived and done well, that is until recently. Now, along comes China, who has been welcomed in the global economy with their slave camps, the ones you and I will never lay eyes upon, no matter how many interviews the US media does with China. This is the heart of the problem. This is why these corporate jerks need a cheap work force. Its to compete with a slave force. The US should be telling China that they are not welcome anymore until they are a viable democratic economy.

We don't do business with Cuba, why are we caving in to China?

So, until the government has reduced us to slaves who will work for pennies on the dollar (pay will continue to drop becuase of the continuing drop in available jobs and more people coming in all the time), the government will take this country apart, piece by piece until we are at war with each other over jobs that pay what those poor slaves in China get. Then it will be that America can now compete with China and in the process, the corporates will become even richer.

Our government kisses ass to a country who is hell bent on destroying us. There is no more loyalty from corporates to a free society type philosophy. We could be under communist rule for all they care. If we go, the rest of the world does not stand a chance in hell of remaining free. China's goal in world domination and the coporates of the US are going to help them achieve that.

If we try and stop this, the government can now turn against us with the military by calling uprisings 'terrorism'.

It's a sad time for America. We will never be as free as we once were ever again. This country is no longer democratic. Our voting system is rigged. This country actually died a ways back.. back about the time JFK was assassinated.

What a combo! Two of the biggest cons in our current America: social security and illegal immigration. As much as I dislike Congresswoman McKinney and Congressman Conyers, I could support the idea of impeachment. Unfortunately, Tom Tancredo is way down the line in order of succession, and he is the only guy in power I would like to see as president right now.

Morning Rock... good avatar LOL

we have viable economy in a free society that has thrived

HAD Rock HAD a viable economy and the myth of a free society.

The US should be telling China that they are not welcome anymore

They can't thanks to Clinton. By design China is the largest creditor of the US. That fact is the only thing holding the dollar alive. When they dump it and they have started, the dollar and the economy will crash. They already started. China announced it will now buy oil using the Euro.

So, until the government has reduced us to slaves who will work for pennies on the dollar

You already are. The dollar has dropped over 30% and is/was anticipated to drop another 20% this year. I think the fact China made its announcement and other indicators that it will crash.

The devaluation of the dollar is by design to force in the Amero. They are like bulls in a china shop because their tails are caught in a trap as the people awaken and the documentation of the traitorous acts are coming forth. They now have to move quickly and they are making mistakes.

YES when the US economy implodes it will affect the entire world economy and that in and of itself may be our salvation. It will not just be Americans who can do nothing but wait for the inevitable but the rest of the world that may in fact get FED UP with the BS and take action.

Right now the Canadian dollar is higher than our Dollar and the last time I looked the British pound was $1.79 to $1.00 I forget the Euro but it is also higher all those currencies are backed with gold. The dollar is a note to pay from a bankrupted government ... the USA

The reason I said "WAS" in the previous paragraph is the fact Friday's market indicated the biggest insider sell off in twenty years.

The market and other financial sources this week bare close watching. My question is what are they going to back the Amero with? Mexico backs its currency with silver (which has been deliberately depressed) Canada backs its currency with gold (also deliberately depressed) Could this be one of the reasons to shanghai those governments into the NAU????? Your next question ought to be where the H is the American gold or silver to back the dollar. I'll tell ya .. it is collateralized! This nation is broke for all intents and purposes and it has been by design because the United States is/was the hinch pin of the world economy. Now they have elevated China to that status as they fold us into the dust bin of history.

If we try and stop this, the government can now turn against us with the military by calling uprisings 'terrorism'.

EXACTLY that too is by design why do you think they rushed through the Military Commissions and John Warner Acts? It is because the vast majority of the nation is awakening. They need to move fast before the questions asked get the ugly answers that are outside the matrix they created for all of us.