Thread: Spanish, English taugh side-by-side

I think there is some truth to what Gabriel is saying.

My siblings, both fluent in English and Spanish (they learned both at home) are the smartest in their class. We happen to live in a poor neighborhood and they attend a school where most of the kids also come from poor families.

Both of my siblings, while they are good at math, are not great readers because from what they have shown me, that school has to teach at the level of other poorly prepared students. And no, the school isn't 98% Hispanic... it's about 98% African American. So it's not an issue of illegal kids bringing them down. There are many other factors to consider.

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by Gabriel

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by Gabriel

Originally Posted by dyehard39

The Mariposa Academy is attended by Hispanics who do not speak English. It is in a Spanish neighborhood and an Elementary school in 4 block away. It is mis-leading when it says "Spanish and English" is taught because there are no English speaking Americans there who wish to learn Spanish. It is attended by Hispanics who do not or speak very little English and could not function in a learning capacity in regular school.I believe when a child enters school here in America, they should be able to speak and understand English and the added responsible, to the taxpayer,of hiring Spanish speaking teachers and having classes taught in both languages is taking time away from the Americans students whose interest in the first years is learning. Learning other languages should come later and it should be a choice. It is difficult enough in early years to learn and adjust to school. I believe this is the sole reason our schools are failing. Much has been taken away from learning and placed on language. Most of us who enter school aready know English but if time is taken away from the student by the teacher to teach Spanish the student loses.

This is not the sole reason schools are failing. There are too many schools that are underperforming where Spanish is NOT taught "side-byside" with English. Furthermore, look at math scores. They stink. In any language 5 + 5 equals 10. The number one factor influencing test scores and achievement is DEMOGRAPHICS, not language.

I don't know that I agree. The fact of school districts having to double up resources for the schools in that district that are overloaded with non-English-speakers creates a resource drain on other schools within that district. We're seeing that all over Texas. What's more, we are seeing schools that were majority Caucasian just a few short years ago now over-run with Hispanics. As a matter of fact, the junior high in my own neighborhood has gone from less than 20% Hispanic to over 70% Hispanic, with so many of those Hispanic students not speaking English that the marquis sign in front of the school is now posted with messages ONLY in Spanish, in less than ten years.

You don't have to agree but talk to anyone in education and they can tell you the same. Certainly one who has studied the concept of learning English as a second language would know this.

Ah, I see... anyone in education.

Dude, those sort of cheap rhetorical copouts don't work here.

Not a copout, but who else would be qualified to tell you but the people who work in the environment on a daily basis and study the facts. At the moment data is driving instruction.
CrocketsGhost, so do you ask your mechanic about your prostate?

Crocket - you are absolutely correct (again!!)

What I see and hear of today's education is appalling. I can only speak to my own personal experience.

My Cheyenne mother died (when I was born), and my father put me up for adoption. I was adopted into a Polish family. So, my first language was Polish. That was all we spoke in the house and because we lived in a Polish community, that was the only language I initially knew.

When I was old enough to go to school, I was sent to an Irish Catholic school. My relatives all tell me that inside 1-2 months, I was babbling in English and could switch back and forth without a problem. And because I was in Catholic schools, I also had to learn to understand, read and speak Latin because all the masses were in Latin back then.

When I was 6-1/2, I went to live with my Cheyenne grandparents. I learned the language within a couple, three months.

To this day, I can understand Polish even though I haven't used it in 20+ years. The same goes with the Cheyenne. I can't read Polish anymore cause I haven't written in Polish for 30+ years. Never did learn to write in Cheyenne.

It is my belief that children are like sponges and will learn, and adapt, quickly, provided, of course, THAT THEY ARE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY AND ENCOURAGED.

As for learning a foreign language in our schools, my personal opinion is that a variety of languages should be offered to American children - not just Spanish. We do live in a global community, and I have encouraged my kids and grandkids to pick a foreign language that they could become proficient in. One of my kids choose Russian, another chose Japanese, 2 chose Spanish, and 3 chose French. It should be an individual choice.

This is America - our primary language is English and we should all know how to read, write, speak, English first. We should not have a language crammed down our throats just because the country is in close proximity to ours. If we're truly a nation of "diversity" as the propaganda says, then our children should be offered a variety of languages to choose from.

[quote=Gabriel]

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by Gabriel

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by Gabriel

Originally Posted by "dyehard39":2k11cnmh

The Mariposa Academy is attended by Hispanics who do not speak English. It is in a Spanish neighborhood and an Elementary school in 4 block away. It is mis-leading when it says "Spanish and English" is taught because there are no English speaking Americans there who wish to learn Spanish. It is attended by Hispanics who do not or speak very little English and could not function in a learning capacity in regular school.I believe when a child enters school here in America, they should be able to speak and understand English and the added responsible, to the taxpayer,of hiring Spanish speaking teachers and having classes taught in both languages is taking time away from the Americans students whose interest in the first years is learning. Learning other languages should come later and it should be a choice. It is difficult enough in early years to learn and adjust to school. I believe this is the sole reason our schools are failing. Much has been taken away from learning and placed on language. Most of us who enter school aready know English but if time is taken away from the student by the teacher to teach Spanish the student loses.

This is not the sole reason schools are failing. There are too many schools that are underperforming where Spanish is NOT taught "side-byside" with English. Furthermore, look at math scores. They stink. In any language 5 + 5 equals 10. The number one factor influencing test scores and achievement is DEMOGRAPHICS, not language.

I don't know that I agree. The fact of school districts having to double up resources for the schools in that district that are overloaded with non-English-speakers creates a resource drain on other schools within that district. We're seeing that all over Texas. What's more, we are seeing schools that were majority Caucasian just a few short years ago now over-run with Hispanics. As a matter of fact, the junior high in my own neighborhood has gone from less than 20% Hispanic to over 70% Hispanic, with so many of those Hispanic students not speaking English that the marquis sign in front of the school is now posted with messages ONLY in Spanish, in less than ten years.

You don't have to agree but talk to anyone in education and they can tell you the same. Certainly one who has studied the concept of learning English as a second language would know this.

Ah, I see... anyone in education.

Dude, those sort of cheap rhetorical copouts don't work here.

Not a copout, but who else would be qualified to tell you but the people who work in the environment on a daily basis and study the facts. At the moment data is driving instruction.
CrocketsGhost, so do you ask your mechanic about your prostate?[/quote:2k11cnmh]
Gabriel, you know full well that I am referring to the BS rhetorical tactic of claiming that "anyone" in education agrees with your point. I KNOW that's a lie, because my stepmom recently retired from teaching because of the problems arising from the flood of illegals and their inability to speak the language. So there's AT LEAST one lifelong educator who does not agree with you.

If you are going to debate, debate honestly. Don't come here with that "everyone knows" nonsense in lieu of facts or evidence, because it just makes your debating skills look weak or (in this case) nonexistent.

Gabriel Wrote:

so do you ask your mechanic about your prostate?

Yes, once in awhile I ask myself about it.

[quote=CrocketsGhost][quote=Gabriel]

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by Gabriel

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by "Gabriel":12ohlmoh

Originally Posted by "dyehard39":12ohlmoh

The Mariposa Academy is attended by Hispanics who do not speak English. It is in a Spanish neighborhood and an Elementary school in 4 block away. It is mis-leading when it says "Spanish and English" is taught because there are no English speaking Americans there who wish to learn Spanish. It is attended by Hispanics who do not or speak very little English and could not function in a learning capacity in regular school.I believe when a child enters school here in America, they should be able to speak and understand English and the added responsible, to the taxpayer,of hiring Spanish speaking teachers and having classes taught in both languages is taking time away from the Americans students whose interest in the first years is learning. Learning other languages should come later and it should be a choice. It is difficult enough in early years to learn and adjust to school. I believe this is the sole reason our schools are failing. Much has been taken away from learning and placed on language. Most of us who enter school aready know English but if time is taken away from the student by the teacher to teach Spanish the student loses.

This is not the sole reason schools are failing. There are too many schools that are underperforming where Spanish is NOT taught "side-byside" with English. Furthermore, look at math scores. They stink. In any language 5 + 5 equals 10. The number one factor influencing test scores and achievement is DEMOGRAPHICS, not language.

I don't know that I agree. The fact of school districts having to double up resources for the schools in that district that are overloaded with non-English-speakers creates a resource drain on other schools within that district. We're seeing that all over Texas. What's more, we are seeing schools that were majority Caucasian just a few short years ago now over-run with Hispanics. As a matter of fact, the junior high in my own neighborhood has gone from less than 20% Hispanic to over 70% Hispanic, with so many of those Hispanic students not speaking English that the marquis sign in front of the school is now posted with messages ONLY in Spanish, in less than ten years.

You don't have to agree but talk to anyone in education and they can tell you the same. Certainly one who has studied the concept of learning English as a second language would know this.

Ah, I see... anyone in education.

Dude, those sort of cheap rhetorical copouts don't work here.

Not a copout, but who else would be qualified to tell you but the people who work in the environment on a daily basis and study the facts. At the moment data is driving instruction.
CrocketsGhost, so do you ask your mechanic about your prostate?[/quote:12ohlmoh]
Gabriel, you know full well that I am referring to the BS rhetorical tactic of claiming that "anyone" in education agrees with your point. I KNOW that's a lie, because my stepmom recently retired from teaching because of the problems arising from the flood of illegals and their inability to speak the language. So there's AT LEAST one lifelong educator who does not agree with you.

If you are going to debate, debate honestly. Don't come here with that "everyone knows" nonsense in lieu of facts or evidence, because it just makes your debating skills look weak or (in this case) nonexistent.[/quote:12ohlmoh]
Quit because of the flood of illegals? It's a good thing she left. You are correct, I should not have made an absolute statement; however the evidence is overwhelming that using both the native language and the English language are more beneficial and that's was my initial point. For example if you were learning Russian and you walked into a class where nothing but Russian was spoken, you'd be lost because you have no background knowledge. However if you were told in English what something was and then given the name in Russian it would be more likely you would pick it up faster. Why don't we just have everyone bring in facts and evidence and we'd have two posts.

Originally Posted by Gabriel

Quit because of the flood of illegals? It's a good thing she left. You are correct, I should not have made an absolute statement; however the evidence is overwhelming that using both the native language and the English language are more beneficial and that's was my initial point. For example if you were learning Russian and you walked into a class where nothing but Russian was spoken, you'd be lost because you have no background knowledge. However if you were told in English what something was and then given the name in Russian it would be more likely you would pick it up faster. Why don't we just have everyone bring in facts and evidence and we'd have two posts.

Beneficial to WHO, Gabe? It sure as Hell was not more beneficial to the native-born kids who had to sit through all the kowtowing to damned ILLEGAL ALIENS while the real American kids slipped further and further behind where they should be because of resources being stretched thin. ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION has wracked the Texas educational system and the problem is STILL getting worse.

BTW - I happen to have learned Russian. You know how? I spent a winter in Russia. Immesrion DOES work, and it's how immigrants whose native tongue is EVERYTHING BUT Spanish end up learning English in these United States. How the Hell do you explain their proficiency in the lingua franca, you illegal immigrant/Hispano-apologist?

Damn, jerks like this guy get me steamed. The ONLY DAMNED thing this guy is concerned about is how ONE SINGLE ethnicity is treated by the educational system while the system itself CLEARLY is going to Hell in a handcart.

I have one parting question for you, Gabe: What do you think the educational system would be like if every class was required to be taught in EVERY SINGLE LANGUAGE spoken by ANY immigrant from anywhere who happened to attend a given school? What would ever get taught if every teacher had to repeat everything in English, Spanish, French, Swahili, Russian, Chinese, Sinhalese, Erdu, Portuguese, Deutsch, Farsi... ? It looks pretty damned STUPID when it's not just your own native tongue, eh Gabe?

Bilingual education has never worked and there is enough of conclusive evidence about it to prove it. It didn't worked in my old country The Netherlands where they have problems with Turks and Moroccans. They taught them in their native language Dutch and guess what, they never spoke Dutch because the leftist and idiotic Government translated everything for them, like how to get social security. The Turks and Morroccans never spoke Dutch at home because their parents or grandparents couldn't or refused to learn Dutch, They watch their own t.v. shows, the listen to their own shows and music on the radio, on the streets they spoke their own language.

People, it's the same crap with the Hispanic and other foreign groups here in the US. They don't integrate into to American society because some of them just don't want and prefer keep their own heritige/native language. Everybody, that includes the government gives them opportunities in their own language and that's why they think they don't need to learn and speak English. Some are here to work and go back home later and just don't care, good example are the Cubans who are still dreaming about going back home after so many years and guess what, they ain't going back, because it is and it will be a nightmare there after Fidel dies. The US government gives them everything on paper what they can read and answer questions in their own language. It doesn't make sense.

We can copy some rules from for example, the Netherlands who changed their laws after they woke up how bad it was. They came up with new rules like : before you enter the nation, you must have some knowledge of the Dutch language and culture. At the consul of your native country you learn the language and culture. It's a test and you must pay a couple thousand Euro's. If you fail the test, good bye, a nice day and thank you for your taking the test, that means thank you for your money too. If you pass, you get a percentage back and you are welcome to enter the nation. There is no bilingual education anymore, so if your kids will only learn Dutch and because the parents already have some knowledge of the language, it's easy for them to speak Dutch and watch and listen Dutch television and radio. That's how you learn. By time at high school, other important languages, those who are necessary for a strong Economy and business relationship such as the German, English, Spanish or French, will be taught to all students. That is a must. It works, the majority of the Dutch people and foreign born Dutch citizens speak Fluent Dutch and other languages. If foreign born Dutch citizens what to keep speaking and teach their childrens their native langauge, than they must do that in their own time, because that is not the responsibility of the Dutch government or society. You must integrate or if you don't want, you get the hell out. It's insane to use your tax money for foreign languages that isn't important to keep the society equal, strong and progressive. The Netherlands doesn't want poor immigrant anymore, and illegal immigrants are being hunted down and being deported. That old liberal and mindless idea to import them and give illegal aliens amnesty was foolish and they paid their price. Now they are still paying the high price for their mess. Now they have high foreing born Dutch citizens unemployment, because they don't or can't speak the national language.

It's time that the US does the same thing and just stop with this mindless nonsense. You just put them al together and teach them English and by time other subjects. We shouldn't care about their native language at all. Cut ties with your old country, think like an American, but you don't have to forget your background. The parents must take their time to learn and speak English by watching for example American news channels and not Telemundo or TV azteca or whatever. Let them take their own responsibility, and if they fail, to bad, go back home. There is no reason to fail because there is enough service sponsored by tax money to teach parents who are legal immigrants at community colleges to learn English. Illegal aliens, cut it out, just deport them, they have no right to take advantage of US tax money. Some of them pay taxes, I don't care, but the fact is they receive more help than paying taxes by having a ITIN number or a fake or stolen SS number. Criminals belong in jail and being deported. US citizens who commit a crime also paid taxes but is still going to jail, so it make sense. Anyway, At all schools, teach them English, because that is the national language of the USA and it's paid by US citizens and legal US residents. Look at now for example Miami, where they have bilingual education and where more half of the hispanic and haitian immigrants can't speak comprehensive English and don't make it to enter a university. Why? they are being tought English in their own language..does that make sense? No, of course not. Speak English, read English books and you learn it fast. More than 50% in Miami Dade county of hispanic students are drop outs and become social security collecters. In little havana nobody speaks English, in little haiti nobody speaks English, in almost whole Miami metropolitan area nobody speaks english, why? Even if you go to Burger King, Wendy's or Mcdonalds, it's insane! From government service to public notifications are in Spanish or Creole "French". Why? Because the poor immigrants or illegal immigrants can't speak and understand English. And now they are forcing me to learn Spanish or Creole. I say, the hell with you and I ignore people who don't speak English to me or sometimes I speak Dutch and they look at me if they shit in their pants. The point is, the students, the so called next generation is failing and doesn't care at all to learn to speak proper English because they think everything is in Spanish so why should I do my best at school and waste my time to learn English. That foolish they are thanks to idiotic no brainers who think that bilingual education is wonderful. Wake up people, we are creating a dumb multi ethnic society here where English speaking Americans can't communicate with naturlized US citizens or illegal immigrants. One day it will collapse and create problems, big problems. Time is ticking.
My wife is a school teacher, and she teaches Spanish, English, math and social science, but she can't teach the majority of the kids in English because they don't understand it or they don't even understand their own native language. She is dealing with illegal immigrants from other third world nations who never went to an elementary school or never finished it. Those kids are a problem for the teachers, they don't know how to teach them a subject and those kids are confused, feel and behave frustrated and are left behind. Now teachers are pushed against their will to learn Corean and Chinese because they don't know Spanish and English. It's crazy! And guess what, their salaries are not going up but must study extra in their free time. Another reason why those kids don't make it because they move each time to another place, because of fear or their parents found another job somewhere else. Another problem is, those parents can't help their kids with their homework, because they don't have any knowledge of the English language and worse, they also noticed that the majority of those parents barely have some education or non, so they can't even speak their native language properly. Now how the hell are you going to help their kids if they are home and must do their home work. Some parents don't even give a damn, another big problem in poor immigrant communities. They are failing, it's a waste of tax money and we all pay the price now and on long term. Conclusion bilingual education doesn't work and illegal immigrants are trouble makers for us all. This has nothing to do with race but comon sence.