Thread: Students rally to back Alien Minors Act

Now this is some SURPRISE

I would like to re-iterate that yes, I am a supporter of the DREAM Act.

going.........going...............going down in flames

The ANTI AMERICAN CHILDREN'S ------dream act

Have a wonderful day, gratis of the USofA

1. Are you speaking of IMMIGRANTS or ILLEGAL ALIENS?
there is a distinction but I'm certain that you are aware of that tiny detail.

2. Which country can you name that has always been RECEPTIVE to IMMIGRANTS?

3. Which country can you name that has never had a 'class or cast' system?

4. What is YOUR point concerning the nationalities of American LEGAL IMMIGRANTS?

5. Which, among the American LEGAL IMMIGRANTS refused to assimilate into American society while graciously honoring the rich cultures that they brought with them?

6. Which group of LEGAL IMMIGRANTS did the U.S. government cater to within the context of language, education and the RULE OF LAW?

Well, it seems that I can't get off this board now. Gosh, I think I'll try to answer as many posts as I can but I am one person.

Well, I feel that you have taken my post out of original context. I never said that America is the only country in the world that has never been receptive towards immigrants. I'm just repeating what the history books have written on immigration in America. Funnily enough, I would say that some African nations were receptive towards immigrants (Asians, actually) but when dictatorships started occurring, they used these same immigrants as scapegoats and then expelled them.

I still would like to ask when did the term illegal alien get defined and how it defined prior to the 1960s/70s/80s? I'm rather curious about this detail since I feel that illegal alien is a more recent term.

My point is concerning the nationalities of immigrants was to answer a previous query as to who built America. Immigrant labor and slave labor.

And we are still steering away from the original topic at hand. I'm not adovcating for immigration reform here. I'm advocating for DREAM which represents one piece of legislation that would handle less than a million cases.

The kids who would be the beneficiary of DREAM have assimilated into American culture in order to go through school. Many of them maintain their rich culture at home.

Please, I would like this topic to still focus on DREAM since that was my original intention. Furthermore, no one has offered any feedback on to my suggestion as to making the children pay for however much public education they receive in their life.

Also, another thing, if you don't want to give the kids to instate tuition, would you rather have them obtain international student status so that they pay at those rates?[/quote]

Or, we can get have a rational immigration policy. One that doesn't promote massive waves of Third Worlders to drag down our school system.

Is it really Third Worlders dragging down the school system? I would like to see evidence of this. If only 65,000 undocumented students graduate per year and we multiply this by 4, they still won't represent a significant fraction of public school students

Give me sources that American citizens didn't build this nation. The vast majority of people who live here were born here. This nation has gone through periods where we had very little immigration at all. The other periods were characterized by LEGAL immigration and highly regulated immigration. And its nice to know that you promote slavery. Its cheap and economically efficient, right?

I think I qualified my previous statement above as to the whole American citizens didn't build America. They did. They were descdants of immigrants.

LOL, and I never said I promote slavery. That was in one of the sources. History is what it is, I suppose

Its incorrect to believe that our system owes illegal Third Worlders anything. I don't care about there merit or lack there of. They need to get out of our nation.

The education system doesn't owe anything to anyone, that I agree. That's why it is a merit based system. My professor does not owe me an A. That's why I'm happy when I earn that grade and get that merit awarded to my transcript

We need to do what we did in the past when foreign countries were outcompeting us. Improve the education in the math and the sciences of AMERICANS. We need to stop exporting our tech, get out of debt to foreign nations, and stop being dependent on foreingers.

Well, I agree and I think I provided a plausible explanation as to how to go about doing this. Although I used Wall Street as an example, clearly you beg to differ. What do you think we should do to improve our education system? You have other nations who are not in as good as a position as we are, and yet they outperform us.[/quote]

Had the number of international students stayed rather 'flat', then I guess that would be noteworthy. But, the trends have been toward an even greater number of international students in many academic fields.

We've heard your arguments all before - the Globalist/Libertarian agenda - where, individual effort and accomplishments are all that supposedly matter.

Where you are wrong, is that in this country and to most people, laws still matter. Or, looking at the problem from the reverse, one could also say that many criminals also 'work hard to succeed'. The problem is that there is no safe way of saying 'this type of law-breaking' is better than 'that type of law-breaking'. Profiting by breaking the law is still wrong and ought not to be rewarded. I don't care how hard someone 'works' to succeed. People that have shown a willingness and ability to live within society's legal mandates should always be given preference over those that have shown otherwise.

Thank you for giving me something to work with! I enjoyed your reply and will reply in kind.

The thing is with children or minors especially, they had no choice in the matter of breaking the law. Law matters yes. But the law reacts differently to a minor versus an adult. I don't think that it's this law breaking vs that law breaking as much as how do we configure choice versus coercion?

As for your statement regarding showing a willingness to live within society's legal mandates, the DREAM Act explicitly requires this in order for the student to receive the conditional status. If they haven't gotten out of trouble, graduated from high school, got into college or the military, they are conditionally permanent residents and have to maintain a good citizen standing - otherwise, they get deported.

Originally Posted by lala

Is it really Third Worlders dragging down the school system? I would like to see evidence of this. If only 65,000 undocumented students graduate per year and we multiply this by 4, they still won't represent a significant fraction of public school students

If you take foreign born (and blacks) out of the equation, America ranks near the top of literacy and quantitative reasoning.

The education system doesn't owe anything to anyone, that I agree. That's why it is a merit based system. My professor does not owe me an A. That's why I'm happy when I earn that grade and get that merit awarded to my transcript

We should not be giving illegals benefits that legals do not get. That is what DREAM does, does it not?

Well, I agree and I think I provided a plausible explanation as to how to go about doing this. Although I used Wall Street as an example, clearly you beg to differ. What do you think we should do to improve our education system? You have other nations who are not in as good as a position as we are, and yet they outperform us.

[/quote]
I'm not exactly a cheerleader for the public education system. Its not an issue that I am greatly informed on. However, I think what Kennedy did in the past was good and seem to sure as hell work. But going back to my previous point--half of hispanics drop out of school. We need to start with our immigration policy. We need a rational immigration policy, not importing 3 million Third Worlders a year.

Originally Posted by lala

Nowadays, you need to show proof of employability in order to work in the U.S.

Day laborers?

Originally Posted by lala

Not sure what it was like in the 1940s and 50s. Sure, there were quotas and visas. But I'm just as sure that there were others who fell through the cracks and were able to get in. And I bet you it was relatively easy to forge documents and I bet you it wasn't hard to get a social security number (at one point, didn't all immigrants get a social security number automatically when they came into the U.S? Or was it foreign students only?)

I bet it's even easier now.

Playing the old and worn out SLAVE CARD? The "America is a nation of Immigrants Card?

Again, not going to fly. It seems that you need an American History lesson rather than a 'history re-written lesson.'

You know all those roads, high rises, ditches, tunnels, etc.?

Well, as it goes, MY ANCESTORS -LEGAL IMMIGRANTS - NOT ILLEGAL ALIENS - helped to build them along with all the other AMERICANS that worked their fingers to the bone withOUT govenment entitlements in order to educate their children and create the America that we now know.

Again, I ask, once an immigrant got into the country before the 1960s, was there an illegal alien policy similar to what we have now that dealt with this situation? Basically, how was an illegal alien defined before the 1960s and it became a problem?

And I applaud your family for building America. America is a nation of immigrants. If you can trace the nationality of your descendants, then you are a descendant of an immigrant. Consequently, America was built through immigrant labor.

Don't lay the slave garbage on. Slaves made up a small percentage of America for a given period of time. America, as in most of the West, used a massive workforce of 'indentured immigrant servants' as well as Legal immigrants with SKILLS and proof that they would NOT be a burden on society!! Health screening even then, was very important to our society. We ended diseases.......NOT fostered them.

Interesting fact that you reply reminded me of: Slaves at one point outnumbered white Americans in South Carolina during the early 1800s. People of course were afraid that there would be slave revolt, but I digress.

Of course slaves made up a small percentage of America, but I do not think that you can say that they did not work extensively on government buildings, railroads, the economy (especially in the South), etc.

But I'm not here to go on a tangent of slaves in America.

Those slaves' ancestors are Americans. We, Americans, have worked very hard to grow, right wrongs and improve. However, the socialist/communists in this great country, the most giving nation on this planet, has destroyed our American educational system --- on brick at a time. And they've managed to accomplish this thru REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH among other linchpins.

Agreed. I also said that I was against wealth redistribution!

While you're speaking of SLAVES, how about you speak of all the SLAVE NATIONS that exist today while the USofA is dumping money around the world to help end it? Why not speak of Africa, where the slave trade is still in existance? How about in the Islamic nations? China? North Korea?
MEXICO?

I'm definitely not speaking of slaves. LOL! Did I ever say "slavery was bad" or "slavery was good". It was one sentence that was an aside at best and which we are currently and unnecessarily focusing on since it misses the overall point of the original post. And I corrected my original statement since it was not clear and I hope it is now.

I said nothing about reparations. I said nothing about America's (and the entire world's) "sin". All I said was that slaves and immigrant labor built America. Slaves also built the pyramids in Egypt. Slave labor is commonplace through out the world.

Give me a break...........don't pull the slave / immigrant card..........it only serves to make you appear as a parrot, squawking the same ole same ole mantra.

Then what about the other things that I have suggested in my post?

Our educational system is being further eroded by catering to NON CITIZENS, ILLEGAL ALIENS thru entitlements that Americans are paying for. Should these people choose to better themselves, then they had better high tail it back where they belong and improve their own nations.
You see, human nature being what it is..........they are merely bringing their corruption, crime and violence with them and turning each area where they settle into the same from which they ran.

In what way is the education system being eroded by illegal aliens? I'd like to hear your input on this since I just posted on how they made a small fraction of the student population.

Furthermore, I also gave a proposition that would force illegal alien children, upon legal adulthood, being forced to pay back the American taxpayer dollars for their education. What do you think about that?

Sad but FACT. 70% of the ILLEGAL criminals have a rap sheet.
Repetative criminals. Approx 28% of our jails are ILLEGAL ALIENS.
Considering the percentages, it doesn't take a rocket scientist or a financial expert to see the TRUTH. Illegal Aliens create exactly that which they ran from.

I never heard this statistic before. I'm curious, can I read your source? I wonder if it lists what these illegal aliens were arrested for and the level of the offense.

YES, ALIPAC certainly does have an agenda which is transparent for all to see. We support LEGAL immigration and are completely opposed to this ILLEGAL INVASION.

Your point?

No point when I said that. You just repeated what I said. We all have an agenda and an opinion. Unlike other detractors, I never said that ALIPAC is evil or racist. I just said that you have an agenda that contrasts to my own opinion on the matter and I would like to have a conversation with you all. Is that wrong?

Day laborers?


I bet it's even easier now.

LOL. Touche, but considering that everything was paper based and not computerized, I feel that if illegal aliens - in the context of how we see it today- did exist prior to the 1960s, it wouldn't be that hard to appear legal.

If employers did what they were supposed to with the background checks, certainly it is harder now that it was before.

Originally Posted by lala

If employers did what they were supposed to with the background checks, certainly it is harder now that it was before.

That's a mighty big word, if. If the employers that do knowingly hire illegal aliens and if those same employers were actually held accountable maybe then they would do what they're "supposed" to do.

Originally Posted by lala

I never heard this statistic before. I'm curious, can I read your source? I wonder if it lists what these illegal aliens were arrested for and the level of the offense.

Doesn't list the offenses. But I know that illegals are primarily responsible for the spike in gang violence--the only violent crime on the rise. They are responsible for making ARIZONA the leading state in crime. Others may have the exact stats, but I know that there have been MANY murders, rapes, incidents of child molestation--you name it. According to traitor Bush's own words, 1 in 12 illegals detained by Border patrol has a criminal record. MS-13 is an illegal immigrant gang. As well as Los Angeles' top Mexican gangs.

Stats aside, just use some common sense--The majority of illegals are young, poor, uneducated males. Kinda fits the profile doesn't it? Besides, Mexico has a criminal culture--they are exporting it here.

I just said that you have an agenda that contrasts to my own opinion on the matter and I would like to have a conversation with you all. Is that wrong?

No. Most libertarians I talk to are complete arrogant a-holes. Sorry if some people (myself included) are showing such contempt. I'll refrain from any personal attacks or disrespect. However, I DO have contempt for globalism. Not going to comprimise on that one.