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Thread: The Ted Cruz’s Establishment friendly tax plan

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  1. #21
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Judy,

    Section 4, which you previously quoted and have a problem with, is our founder's idea and is found in several of our Constitution's ratification documents. For example see the Ratification of theConstitution by the State of New Hampshire; June 21, 1788

    Fourthly That Congress do not lay direct Taxes but when the money arising from Impost, Excise and their other resources are insufficient for the Publick Exigencies; nor then, untill Congress shall have first made a Requisition upon the States, to Assess, Levy, & pay their respective proportions, of such requisitions agreeably to the Census fixed in the said Constitution in such way & manner as the Legislature of the State shall think best and in such Case if any State shall neglect, then Congress may Assess & Levy such States proportion together with the Interest thereon at the rate of six per Cent per Annum from the Time of payment prescribed in such requisition-


    Why do you have such a problem with our Constitution's original tax plan which paved the way for America to become the economic marvel of the world? Why do you have such a problem with our founder's original tax plan which also encouraged Congress to follow sound fiscal policies and spend within the limits of imposts, duties and excise taxes to avoid the dreaded apportioned tax?

    And why is it that not one of our candidates will discuss the merits of our Constitution's original tax plan when talking tax reform, nor will any of our radio/tv talk show hosts ever discus our Constitution's original tax plan and this includes Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, Laura Ingraham, Schnitt, Mark Levin, DennisPrager, Bill O'rielly, Mike Gallagher, Doc Thompson, Lee Rodgers, Neal Boortz,Mike Huckabee, Tammy Bruce, Monica Crowley, Herman Cain. Eric Bolling, Kimberly Guilfoyle, Greg Gutfeld, Dana Perino, Juan Williams, Megyn Kelly, Neil Cavuto, John Stossel etc.,


    JWK


    John, they never used it. Not once. To my knowledge, the direct tax plan through apportionment, what you call as the "original tax plan" has never been used by the Founders or anyone else. I oppose property taxes, income taxes and value-added taxes. I like sales taxes because they are easy, efficient and voluntary whereas the others are none of the above. So, if there is another type of plan that is voluntary, easy and efficient, I would be delighted to review it. But any plan that allows either the federal government or a state or any other level of government to force taxation through liens, seizures, assessments, valuations or income, I totally oppose. These are the epitome of socialism on its face and communism on the back.

    For me, the FairTax is the best plan. It's easy, it's efficient, it's voluntary, it's collected by the states through paid retail businesses, nothing could be more simple, fair or free than that. It even has a rebate program that reimburses everyone who is a US citizen or legal resident the FairTax they would or could pay in FairTax on essentials up to the household consumption allowance. The rate is split after collection to fund general revenue and social security separately so the monies are not commingled and the rates are set separately as well. 14.91% for General Revenue and 8.09% for Social Security and Medicare. It's really a great plan. I've tried for years to find a weakness in it, and so far I can't find one.

    Anyway, the tax plans aren't of any interest to me in this election because they're all income tax based and just more same o same o of the same failed income tax. Of the plans, Trump's is as good as any and I think he'll ramp it up to the FaiTax or something similar once he's in office and actually fix the problem, because that's his end game, to fix the problem, and he knows this plan while perhaps a better version than we have now, is still the same o failed income tax system.
    Last edited by Judy; 01-21-2016 at 07:38 PM.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    John, they never used it. Not once. To my knowledge, .
    If you are talking about the direct tax, it was used a number of times as I previously documented!

    The act of July 14, 1798, c. 75, 1 Stat. 53. This act imposed a tax upon real estate and a capitation tax upon slaves.

    The act of Aug. 2, 1813, c. 37, 3 id. 53. By this act the tax was imposed upon real estate and slaves, according to their respective values in money.

    The act of Jan. 19, 1815, c. 21, id. 164. This act imposed the tax upon the same descriptions of property, and in like manner as the preceding act.

    The act of Feb. 27, 1815, c. 60, id. 216, applied to the District of Columbia the provisions of the act of Jan. 19, 1815. [102 U.S. 586,599] The act of March 5, 1816, c. 24,id. 255, repealed the two preceding acts, and re-enacted their provisions to enforce the collection of the smaller amount of tax thereby prescribed.

    The act of Aug. 5, 1861, c. 45, 12 id. 294, required the tax to be levied wholly on real estate.

    The act of June 7, 1862, c. 98, id. 422, and the act of Feb.6, 1863, c. 21, id. 640, both relate only to the collection, in insurrectionary districts, of the direct tax imposed by the act of Aug. 5, 1861.

    Why do you refer to our founder's plan as communistic?

    JWK

  3. #23
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    direct tax of 1798 and the amounts to be paid by each State

    Judy

    Just for the record and to confirm the use of the direct taxing power, here is a link to the direct tax of 1798 and the amounts to be paid by each of the States.

    http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=720

    JWK

  4. #24
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Why do you refer to our founder's plan as communistic?
    The founders had two plans, general taxation and direct taxation.

    You're talking about apportionment which only applies to direct taxation which has to be done through the states. It's forced mandated taxation that either extorts payments or uses police power to extract property or other assets in lieu of payments. When government can do that, and then does it, it's communism by definition, taking from one to give to another against your will every year of your life. It can take possession of businesses, homes, property, farms, anything it wants.

    The original plan of taxation per the Founders was general tax which is defined in the Constitution as tariffs, duties, imposts and excise taxes. These are taxes on voluntary purchases of goods and services, the same as the FairTax. The FairTax is as close as it gets to the original general tax plan of the Founders. Again, to my knowledge, the "direct tax plan", you seem to favor has never been used, not even when there were shortfalls or deficits, not even during war, emergencies or periods of national crisis.

    And our country survived very well under the general tax plan until 1913 when devious deceptive Democrats led by the evil and wicked Woodrow Wilson wanted to reduce tariffs to create more imports so foreign companies could compete more easily with our businesses, the tariff reductions left a shortfall in revenue, so they combined the Revenue Act with the Tariff Reduction Act, to fill the gap with an income tax which was illegal, so they amended the US Constitution with the 16th Amendment, and with the 16th Amendment and legal authority to use police power to rob the people, passed the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, all done in less than 8 months, and here we are 103 years later with $19 trillion in debt, 73 million people on Medicaid, millions and millions of jobs lost and lives destroyed, 55,000 factory closings, trillions of investment shipped off-shore, with our once beautiful happy country on its way to being the World's Largest Banana Republic, and no end in sight. This time next year, there will be 83 million people on Medicaid, 60,000 factory closings, and the national debt will be $21 Trillion.

    So, Donald Trump will have his hands full to reverse this disaster. What we're in is an economic catastrophe all related to government policies undertaken against the will of the people and almost solely enabled by the income tax.

    One day everyone will understand that. But at that point, it will be way too late for that understanding to make any difference. There's an ole saying "too little, too late", it's actually a law of the universe, also called beyond the point of no return.

    The actual reality of our House of Cards is too tragic to discuss here, so lets just focus on the positives, Donald Trump winning the election and moving as quickly as he can to fix what he still can starting with getting all these illegal aliens the hell out of here and reversing this trade disaster as soon as possible. Those two things will at least stop the bleeding. They will also remove millions and millions of people from Medicaid and other welfare spending programs that reduces federal, state and county/municipal budgets through illegal alien removal because 87% of them are on one form of welfare or more and Americans going back to work at great production jobs with sustainable wages and benefits and no longer needing these services. This at least stops the acts of fiscal asphyxiation and we can at least breathe again.
    Last edited by Judy; 01-21-2016 at 08:19 PM.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    Again, to my knowledge, the "direct tax plan", you seem to favor has never been used, not even when there were shortfalls or deficits, not even during war, emergencies or periods of national crisis.
    .
    Judy,

    Are you intentionally being obtuse?


    I just posted a link to the direct tax of 1798 and the amounts to be paid by each of the States.

    http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=720

    JWK

  6. #26
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Judy

    Just for the record and to confirm the use of the direct taxing power, here is a link to the direct tax of 1798 and the amounts to be paid by each of the States.

    http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llsl&fileName=001/llsl001.db&recNum=720

    JWK
    That was in 1798, before our country was formed with our existing Constitution. Our first Congress was in 1789. Our Constitution wasn't ratified until 1791.
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  7. #27
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    That was in 1798, before our country was formed with our existing Constitution. Our first Congress was in 1789. Our Constitution wasn't ratified until 1791.
    Judy,

    What on earth are you talking about?

    Our Constitution became legally effective on March 4, 1789. However, the ninth State NH ratified it on

    on June 21, 1788, making it binding on the States who ratified it.

    The fact is, the direct tax was used a number of times as I have previously documented for you.

    The first direct tax was approve July 16th, 1798.

    JWK
    Last edited by johnwk; 01-22-2016 at 08:42 AM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnwk View Post
    Judy,

    What on earth are you talking about?

    Our Constitution became legally effective on March 4, 1789. However, the ninth State NH ratified it on

    on June 21, 1788, making it binding on the States who ratified it.

    The fact is, the direct tax was used a number of times as I have previously documented for you.

    The first direct tax was approve July 16th, 1798.

    JWK
    I'm so sorry, JohnWK. I'm using the date the whole Constitution with the Bill of Rights was signed and ratified.

    So you are correct and I stand corrected. From a quick review of those uses, they weren't used as a general tax regular revenue source, it appears they were used in short-term situations. Is that correct? Perhaps in those situations it was necessary, I don't know. I've never known it to be used as a general day to day year to year source of revenue even by the Founders. Is that right?

    Question, how long did the collection on slaves persist? Was that a dictate from the federal government or a plan arranged by the States to come up with their payment on the apportionment assessment?

    Again, I'm a Republican who like many are completely opposed to mandated taxes like income, property, inventory, personal property, all of that. Those are forms of communism and tyranny. Everyone knows that. The issue is whether we as a people can figure out a plan that actually conforms with our ideals of liberty, personal freedom, privacy as well as liberty and freedom in our work and business activities that pays the bills.

    For me, the best plan ever presented to the American People to date is the FairTax because it's easy, efficient and voluntary exactly like the general tax plan of the Founders under the US Constitution where general taxes were tariffs, imposts, duties and excise taxes on goods and services which is all a retail sales tax is, exactly like what the Founders had in mind.

    FairTax Act of 2015: HR 25 in the US House of Representatives and S 155 in the US Senate.
    Last edited by Judy; 01-22-2016 at 09:35 AM.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member johnwk's Avatar
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    Getting back to the subject of the thread, Cruz's tax plan circumvents the rule of apportionment! The very purpose of the rule of apportionment was to guarantee equal taxation whenever Congress taxed the people or their property directly!

    Socialists and the friends of big government hate the rule of apportionment when it comes to taxation but love the rule [one man one vote] part of our Constitution when getting their representation in Congress.

    Cruz promotes a socialist system of taxation where the most productive are taxed more, but are not afforded the rule of apportionment [one dollar one vote] in Congress relative to their financial contribution. And this is also true of Donald Trump, Chris Christie, Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush, Ben Carson, and John Kasich ___ they all want to circumvent the rule of apportionment as applied to taxation which is a rule intended to control and regulate Congress' actions and insure each State's financial contribution is proportionately equal to its representation in Congress.


    JWK




    Let us not forget this coming election the betrayal by House Republicans and Senate Republicans who voted in favor of Paul Ryan’s Bill to finance Obama’s invasion of our borders!

    Last edited by johnwk; 01-22-2016 at 09:59 AM.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Every American who wants to live their life free of forced federal taxation needs to support the FairTax and demand its passage. It's easy, it's efficient and it's voluntary. It's a sales tax on new goods and services. Any citizen or legal resident can sign up for a Rebate to offset the cost of FairTaxes on essentials up to the Household Consumption Allowance whether you actually spend it that month or not, you receive it in advance on the 1st of the month. The Rebate is also voluntary. You don't have to sign up for it if you don't want to.

    You pay the FairTax on new goods and services, not used items, not existing homes that have been sold at least once, not used cars, not used appliances, not used garments or toys or equipment or anything else. Just brand new retail goods and services, not business to business transaction, just retail final point of sale items and services.

    I am unanimous and stedfast on this.
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