Thread: Treason - Does it apply to failure to secure the borders?

Originally Posted by LegalUSCitizen

So in laymen's terms.....what CAN we do

You can impeach the President and Vice President politically through the US Congress where the trial is conducted outside a court room for the purpose of removing the Traitors from Power .. not sending them to jail or the gallows.

Besides, you have to impeach them first anyway. They have immunity from criminal prosecution while sitting as President and Vice President.

Once they're out of the White House ... I'd rather they retire in seclusive exile without pensions than have to pay to house, secure and feed them in a federal prison.

That's why we have impeachment provisions in the US Constitution to remove unfit persons from power to stop the harm to the nation.

Anyway ... there aren't a lot of options for US at this point. Removing them from office seems the more prudent reasonable quickest course to stop the harm. Then let the federal prosecutors figure out what to do with all their crimes and misdemeanors. Once they're out of office, they no longer have Executive Privilege.

Originally Posted by LegalUSCitizen

So in laymen's terms ....what CAN we do

Well, I had enunciated a plan in a previous thread that I think could give us enough temporary success to give ourselves some breathing space, but it won't be easy. You must understand that you are dealing with entrenched interests and that the politicians are just the visible agents of the true enemy within. Entire insitutions have been erected and morphed to serve the needs and goals of the enemy. They appear to be our institutions, but they are ours in name only.

Put simply, we must be systematic and start at the beginning. We can't accomplish most of what Judy wants accomplished because we have no control of the institutions that insulate the higher officials from the People. Congress, for example, must execute an impeachment. Nothing done by the People can accomplish an impeachment unless Congress can be persuaded to act. In order for that to happen, we have to have enough legislators who will side with us rather than with the powers whose policies the Executive is implementing. What does that mean? It mwans that we must work effectively at the very root of the process by getting reliable candidates into the primary process and elected in those primaries as the candidates for the major parties. we can probably do this if we have enough organization and will because very few people (relatively speaking) vote in the primaries.

We also need to elect reliable patriots at the local level, including the judiciary and (most importantly) the Sheriff, but pretty much at all levels. That way we have an immediate advocate when the higher powers such as the state and federal governments cross us. People don't like this approach because it is not a silver bullet. There is no silver bullet. Like staying out of debt and creating a responsible savings account, this is hard and constant work. It's not a process, it's a way of life. That's why I have little hope that we can ever get our fellow citizens to maintain the vigilance necessary to keep this from eventually getting worse. What we can do is to sneak up on these guys with an all-out assault on the primary process for an election or two and get some patriots installed under the banners of the major parties and have them act quickly to rescind bad legislation and to pass solid legislation that will inhibit the ability of these traitors (in the dictionary sense) to continue to sell us out, at least for the short term. With enough success at enough different levels, and if driven by a contract that unifies these newly elected patriots at various levels, we could also push for constitutional amendments and rollbacks of amendments, thereby erecting major roadblocks to a resumption of the sellout when the tide again turns and the bad guys figure out how to work around the new reality.

Originally Posted by 2ndamendsis

PLEASE NOTE:

The United States of America had NOT declared war since WWII.

Herein lies the difficulty. WAR has NOT been declared, therefore, we are in a 'conflict.'

This lack of declaration of war puts an entirely different spin on the entire subject.

"Threats" don't count. There is a very limited scope for Treason.

.

So we have invaded two nations; overthrown their governments; killed hundreds of thousands of their civilians; destroyed their properties; put over the period 589,000 American Troops at risk just in Iraq; spent over $500 Billion and we did not have authority to conduct those wars from the US Congress?

Yippee!!

Bring the Troops Home Now!!

(I think they think we're at war ... maybe someone should tell them we're not at War.)



Treason isn't Treason.

War isn't War.

Enemies aren't Enemies.

Okay ... I think I've got it now. I'm going to watch a movie and hope my head stops spinning like a top before I throw up.



Later Everyone!

You know ... just one more thought .... I think this is how we got where we are today.

"Illegal aliens aren't illegal".

"Catch and Release".

"Undocumented Immigrants".

"Nation of Immigrants".

"No person is illegal".

"Minutemen are vigilantis".

"Minutemen are racists."

"Jobs That Americans Won't Do".

"Virtual Fence".

"Unarmed National Guard".

"Children shouldn't pay for the sins of their Parents".

"Guest Worker Program".

"Secure Borders and Orderly Immigration".

At some point Americans are going have to call a spade a spade.

Until then, we'll drown from the rhetoric.

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by LegalUSCitizen

So in laymen's terms.....what CAN we do

You can impeach the President and Vice President politically through the US Congress where the trial is conducted outside a court room for the purpose of removing the Traitors from Power .. not sending them to jail or the gallows.

Besides, you have to impeach them first anyway. They have immunity from criminal prosecution while sitting as President and Vice President.

Once they're out of the White House ... I'd rather they retire in seclusive exile without pensions than have to pay to house, secure and feed them in a federal prison.

That's why we have impeachment provisions in the US Constitution to remove unfit persons from power to stop the harm to the nation.

Anyway ... there aren't a lot of options for US at this point. Removing them from office seems the more prudent reasonable quickest course to stop the harm. Then let the federal prosecutors figure out what to do with all their crimes and misdemeanors. Once they're out of office, they no longer have Executive Privilege.

No, "you" cannot impeach them. Only Congress can impeach them, and that's a pipe dream, at least given the charges you are contemplating.

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by 2ndamendsis

PLEASE NOTE:

The United States of America had NOT declared war since WWII.

Herein lies the difficulty. WAR has NOT been declared, therefore, we are in a 'conflict.'

This lack of declaration of war puts an entirely different spin on the entire subject.

"Threats" don't count. There is a very limited scope for Treason.

.

So we have invaded two nations; overthrown their governments; killed hundreds of thousands of their civilians; destroyed their properties; put over the period 589,000 American Troops at risk just in Iraq; spent over $500 Billion and we did not have authority to conduct those wars from the US Congress?

Yippee!!

Bring the Troops Home Now!!

(I think they think we're at war ... maybe someone should tell them we're not at War.)



Treason isn't Treason.

War isn't War.

Enemies aren't Enemies.

Okay ... I think I've got it now. I'm going to watch a movie and hope my head stops spinning like a top before I throw up.



Later Everyone!

No. Please keep up. Congress in fact authorized the use of military force in Iraq and Afghanistan. It just did not declare war.

It is an open question whether Congress was ever given the power to authorize military action without declaring war, or whether an authorization of military action is a de facto declaration of war, but there is plenty of precedent for making such an authorization at this late date. No military action since WWII has been a declared war, and so the Congress that authorized these present actions have at least half a century and four or five major cases as precedent.

JUDY
please be fair. We have not killed all those people. You know that.
They have killed and are killing their own people. This is what islamic insane people do to further their cause.

Please don't put that stigma on our troops. It's completely unwarranted and unfounded.

If one of our troops read that, they would be highly hurt and insulted. Especially knowing that they lose their lives every day in the attempt NOT to have collateral damage.

.

Okay ... sounds good to me.

I'll let you and Crock work it out.

Later!!

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by 2ndamendsis

PLEASE NOTE:

The United States of America had NOT declared war since WWII.

Herein lies the difficulty. WAR has NOT been declared, therefore, we are in a 'conflict.'

This lack of declaration of war puts an entirely different spin on the entire subject.

"Threats" don't count. There is a very limited scope for Treason.

.

So we have invaded two nations; overthrown their governments; killed hundreds of thousands of their civilians; destroyed their properties; put over the period 589,000 American Troops at risk just in Iraq; spent over $500 Billion and we did not have authority to conduct those wars from the US Congress?

Yippee!!

Bring the Troops Home Now!!

(I think they think we're at war ... maybe someone should tell them we're not at War.)



Treason isn't Treason.

War isn't War.

Enemies aren't Enemies.

Okay, you edited in some stuff since I first replied, so let's take this in order...

The reason that the definition of treason was strictly limited is that the King of England used "treason" as an excuse to throw anyone who he felt crossed him into a deep dark hole. Remember that the founders of this nation were extremely suspicious of central government and that they sought to strictly limit its powers. After having suffered under King George, they were more predisposed to allowing the guilty to go free than to having a government empowered to persecute the innocent.

As for whether war is war, I have a problem with this one as well. One of the trick employed by those who want to circumvent limitations while expanding powers is to simply use word games to sidestep existing provisions. One of the most important things we could accomplish would be to legislatively eliminate this doublespeak and require our legislators to call a spade a spade.

As far as the "enemies are not enemies" comment, I would refer to my first paragraph. The courts have consistently been very narrow in defining enemies for the same reasons the founders were narrow in defining the powers of central government: to avoid abuse.

Originally Posted by Judy

Okay ... I think I've got it now. I'm going to watch a movie and hope my head stops spinning like a top before I throw up.



Later Everyone!

You know ... just one more thought .... I think this is how we got where we are today.

"Illegal aliens aren't illegal".

"Catch and Release".

"Undocumented Immigrants".

"Nation of Immigrants".

"No person is illegal".

"Minutemen are vigilantis".

"Minutemen are racists."

"Jobs That Americans Won't Do".

"Virtual Fence".

"Unarmed National Guard".

"Children shouldn't pay for the sins of their Parents".

"Guest Worker Program".

"Secure Borders and Orderly Immigration".

At some point Americans are going have to call a spade a spade.

Until then, we'll drown from the rhetoric.

I'm not sure, but it appears that you are directing these comments at me. I don't write the rules, Judy, but I have attacked this nonsense from the legal standpoint in enough cases that I understand that pretending that law and precedent is not what it is accomplishes nothing except getting your case laughed out of court.

Look, if I am assembling a little league basketball team, I'm going to make sure that the kids I'm coaching understand the rules of the game and how they are enforced. I'm not going to humor a kid who has a different opinion than the referee as to how a given rule should be interpreted and enforced. The player's opinion is meaningless. He must learn how the rule is being enforced or else he is going to just keep giving the other team free throws and foul out of the game. Do you see where I'm coming from? You appear to be acting as though I agree with the staus quo rather than explaining it as it now exists and describing the areas in which the odds are stacked against our making any headway. Relying on any legal action that requires the cooperation of a group of people such as those in Cognress who have repeatedly proven their utter unreliability is not a prudent course, nor is it likely to yield any positive results.

Citizens yell Treason when they think there is a Traitor in their midst.

Citzens yell Enemy when they see one in their presence.

Citizens yell War when they've paid over $500 Billion for one and watch the dead and injured soldiers count every day on television.

Citizens decide who is guilty of Treason.

Citizens decide when it's time to Impeach And Remove Traitors from the American White House.

Citizens decide who is their Enemy.

Citizens decide when they've started a War and when it's time to end it.

This is the United States.

And WE are The Americans.

WE not only decide what happens here,

WE control what happens here.

And the day we let someone convince US otherwise, is the day we doomed ourselves.

Our situation is dire.

But, the problem is very simple.

And, the solution is very simple.

There is nothing complicated about it now.

It is time for The Americans to start acting like Americans and scare the holy piss out of the US Congress if they don't impeach these Traitors destroying our country and remove them from office.

It is time for The Americans to demand an immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq and Afghanistan and let these Islamic obsessed fools duke it out on their own time, on their own nickel, with their own lives. They lost me the DAY they ratified a Shariah Law Islamic Based Constitution and rejected democracy.

It is time for The Americans to call a spade and spade and get on those phones on Monday morning and dial until their fingers are numb demanding in clear precise "mean spirited" and blunt terms that if our Will is not executed to remove these Traitors from Office; to secure our borders immediately with armed troops; to get our armed troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan and get them to our borders, then there will be a price to pay by anyone who fails in that duty of representation.

It's very simple.

It's not complicated.

Either they do it; or they don't; and if they don't ... then God Help US ... and He will.

I don't believe for a second that He's ready to see the United States of America dissolved because people don't know what treason, war, enemies and impeachable offenses mean.

But WE have to do the work. He can't do that for US. He can't help US if WE don't help ourselves.

Yeah. Simple...