Thread: We Need a Nationl ID Card

jazzloverinc wrote:

God Bless William he's sounding like a libertarian! Righton! NO REAL ID! it will come with a nice rdif chip that will track every move you make. The ultimate goal is to get the chip OUT of the card and under your skin. They want to be rid of CASH...so they can have absolute control of YOUR life...and if you disagree with the government..all they have to do is turn off that chip...and you won't even be able to buy food.

Here's the IRONY of it..We the People will be under full control with a Real Id...and who will be FREE? The Illegal Aliens who are unable to get the ID with a CHIP in it! THINK please folks...

If you're attempting to piss people off .......... well, it worked on me! Your comment is absolutely ludicrous and is nothing more than conspiracy theory. There are some of us on ALIPAC that support Real ID. Is it your goal to alienate a portion of ALIPAC? If so, you're on the right path. There is a reason the folks at NumbersUSA and Lou Dobbs support Real ID and I doubt it has anything to do with diminishing your freedoms.

Why is it that the opponents of Real ID continue to spread misinformation, hyperbole, conspiracy theories, conjecture, etc.? Is it really that difficult to stick to the facts of what the program is and isn't? I know, the actual facts wouldn't do much to strengthen your argument and the definitely wouldn't be near as interesting.

Personally, I wish all conversation on Real ID would end on ALIPAC. IMO, the issue isn't worth the loss of credibility ALIPAC may be suffering. It can't be good thing when a minority of members of an organization want to shove an issue as controversial as Real ID down the throats of all the other members.

CitizenJustice wrote:

If carrying an ID with a chip in it, that contains every bit of your personal history/business appeals to you, it does NOT appeal to the vast majority of us.

The federal government does not require a chip implant in the Real ID (more misinformation).

SarahPorter wrote:

No national ID card. Let the individual states handle it. That's from a Libertarian standpoint.

Real ID is not a national ID card. It will be the responsibility of the states to issue the cards and maintain the database. As for Libertarian's, their platform support the free flow of people and goods through an "open" border. Furthermore, their big on free trade, not FAIR trade.

This is an issue that is too important to shut up about. Most people do not want to partake in the National Identity system.

JP wrote:

This is an issue that is too important to shut up about. Most people do not want to partake in the National Identity system.

That is your opinion, JP. It's not an opinion that everyone shares. Heck, I'd be surprised if even half of all ALIPAC members opposed Real ID, especially if they were informed on it's merits. IMO, ALIPAC is much to important to be torn apart by the Real ID issue.

This issue seems important enough for enough people to talk about it. The Real ID was touted as stopping illegal immigration when in fact it is a bald face lie. It is well worth discussing. It is not an ALIPAC issue it is an issue of retaining our identity and our freedom.

If Real ID is so great, why are so many state legislatures opting out of it? Give us some facts, not just the excuse "it costs too much." The states are saying it is to invasive into citizen privacy.

Look...some of the ALIPAC folks are always mad at the Ron Paul supporters.


The Real ID is just one more thing to strip us of our liberty. There is a plethora of information out there on the Real ID...and it's not pretty. I say again...the ultimate goal is to chip it and then to chip us...didn't you read either of Williams comments on biometrics? Why should law abiding Americans be chipped and tracked while illegals roam free????


Why take your anger out on me rather than the two administrators who said much more than I did? Don't shoot the messanger buddy...the enemy is out there-------------------->

not in here. Please...step out of the matrix.

Jazzloverinc wrote:

I say again...the ultimate goal is to chip it and then to chip us...didn't you read either of Williams comments on biometrics? Why should law abiding Americans be chipped and tracked while illegals roam free????

Pure speculation that has absolutely no foundation of fact. Furthermore, your argument concerning Real ID is irresponsible because the federal government is not requiring a chip implant in the ID.

There is a plethora of information out there on the Real ID...and it's not pretty.

You're right, there is. However, a lot of that information is based on conjecture, not fact. In this day and age any blogger with internet access can pretty much say what they want without fear of consequence.

You said the ID card will be electronically readable. What does that mean?
The Real ID Act says federally accepted ID cards must be "machine readable," and lets Homeland Security determine the details. That could end up being a magnetic strip, enhanced bar code, or radio frequency identification (RFID) chips.

In the past, Homeland Security has indicated it likes the concept of RFID chips. The State Department is already going to be embedding RFID devices in passports, and Homeland Security wants to issue RFID-outfitted IDs to foreign visitors who enter the country at the Mexican and Canadian borders. The agency plans to start a yearlong test of the technology in July at checkpoints in Arizona, New York and Washington state.

Will state DMVs share this information?
Yes. In exchange for federal cash, states must agree to link up their databases. Specifically, the Real ID Act says it hopes to "provide electronic access by a state to information contained in the motor vehicle databases of all other states."

http://news.cnet.com/FAQ-How-Real-ID-wi ... 111-2.html

Schneier on Security
A blog covering security and security technology.

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May 09, 2005
REAL ID
The United States is getting a national ID card. The REAL ID Act (text of the bill and the Congressional Research Services analysis of the bill) establishes uniform standards for state driver's licenses, effectively creating a national ID card. It's a bad idea, and is going to make us all less safe. It's also very expensive. And it's all happening without any serious debate in Congress.

I've already written about national IDs. I've written about the fallacies of identification as a security tool. I'm not going to repeat myself here, and I urge everyone who is interested to read those two essays (and even this older essay). A national ID is a lousy security trade-off, and everyone needs to understand why.

Aside from those generalities, there are specifics about REAL ID that make for bad security.

The REAL ID Act requires driver's licenses to include a "common machine-readable technology." This will, of course, make identity theft easier. Assume that this information will be collected by bars and other businesses, and that it will be resold to companies like ChoicePoint and Acxiom. It actually doesn't matter how well the states and federal government protect the data on driver's licenses, as there will be parallel commercial databases with the same information.

Even worse, the same specification for RFID chips embedded in passports includes details about embedding RFID chips in driver's licenses. I expect the federal government will require states to do this, with all of the associated security problems (e.g., surreptitious access).

REAL ID requires that driver's licenses contain actual addresses, and no post office boxes. There are no exceptions made for judges or police -- even undercover police officers. This seems like a major unnecessary security risk.

REAL ID also prohibits states from issuing driver's licenses to illegal aliens. This makes no sense, and will only result in these illegal aliens driving without licenses -- which isn't going to help anyone's security. (This is an interesting insecurity, and is a direct result of trying to take a document that is a specific permission to drive an automobile, and turning it into a general identification device.)

REAL ID is expensive. It's an unfunded mandate: the federal government is forcing the states to spend their own money to comply with the act. I've seen estimates that the cost to the states of complying with REAL ID will be $120 million. That's $120 million that can't be spent on actual security.

And the wackiest thing is that none of this is required. In October 2004, the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 was signed into law. That law included stronger security measures for driver's licenses, the security measures recommended by the 9/11 Commission Report. That's already done. It's already law.

REAL ID goes way beyond that. It's a huge power-grab by the federal government over the states' systems for issuing driver's licenses.

REAL ID doesn't go into effect until three years after it becomes law, but I expect things to be much worse by then. One of my fears is that this new uniform driver's license will bring a new level of "show me your papers" checks by the government. Already you can't fly without an ID, even though no one has ever explained how that ID check makes airplane terrorism any harder. I have previously written about Secure Flight, another lousy security system that tries to match airline passengers against terrorist watch lists. I've already heard rumblings about requiring states to check identities against "government databases" before issuing driver's licenses. I'm sure Secure Flight will be used for cruise ships, trains, and possibly even subways. Combine REAL ID with Secure Flight and you have an unprecedented system for broad surveillance of the population.

Is there anyone who would feel safer under this kind of police state?

Americans overwhelmingly reject national IDs in general, and there's an enormous amount of opposition to the REAL ID Act. This is from the EPIC page on REAL ID and National IDs:

More than 600 organizations have expressed opposition to the Real ID Act. Only two groups--Coalition for a Secure Driver's License and Numbers USA--support the controversial national ID plan. Organizations such as the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators, National Association of Evangelicals, American Library Association, Association for Computing Machinery (pdf), National Council of State Legislatures, American Immigration Lawyers Association (pdf), and National Governors Association are among those against the legislation.
And this site is trying to coordinate individual action against the REAL ID Act, although time is running short. It's already passed in the House, and the Senate votes tomorrow.

If you haven't heard much about REAL ID in the newspapers, that's not an accident. The politics of REAL ID is almost surreal. It was voted down last fall, but has been reintroduced and attached to legislation that funds military actions in Iraq. This is a "must-pass" piece of legislation, which means that there has been no debate on REAL ID. No hearings, no debates in committees, no debates on the floor. Nothing.

Near as I can tell, this whole thing is being pushed by Wisconsin Rep. Sensenbrenner primarily as an anti-immigration measure. The huge insecurities this will cause to everyone else in the United States seem to be collateral damage.

Unfortunately, I think this is a done deal. The legislation REAL ID is attached to must pass, and it will pass. Which means REAL ID will become law. But it can be fought in other ways: via funding, in the courts, etc. Those seriously interested in this issue are invited to attend an EPIC-sponsored event in Washington, DC, on the topic on June 6th. I'll be there.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2 ... al_id.html

They removed the requirements for RFID, but that doesn't mean they cannot add it or anything else they want. Like religious or political affiliation as shown by L-! Technologies (Vassage)





http://www.l1id.com/
This is taken from their web site so you know it is not made up. They are marketing this id card as a voter id as well.


Those that do not know their history know that Germany started an id system thanks to IBM and began giving special id's to those they wanted to get rid of because they were blamed for all of the problems of the country. Imagine using a similar situation to force us all into a national id system.

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

--- George Santayana