Thread: Why we need REAL ID and why illegals oppose it

No way. The Real ID is just a neocon assault on our civil rights. It is the absolute equivalant of the Nazi issued papers. The Real ID will stop a natinal ID card? It *is* a national ID card ! That's the most absurd statement I've heard all day.

Neo-con groups such as the Wall Street Journal oppose REAL ID because they favor hiring illegal aliens with fake ID's. Liberals oppose REAL ID because they do not want illegals to have to prove their citizenship when voting.

Why in the world anybody thinks that the Federal government actually wants to fix immigration is beyond me.

We have been insisting the federal government do something to control identity theft and illegal immigration and now they are finally beginning to do something. We need to keep the pressure on them to do more.

Freedom means being free not to have to identify yourself to the government everytime you enter the Courthouse, a bus, a plane, a train...

Freedom is not unlimited in a civilized society. Civilization requires a balance between the rights of the individual and the rights of society. If you want unlimited freedom, you can live on your own island.

These policies are far more restrictive than anything the Middle East ( except Israel) has in place, yet they hate us because we're free?

That's not true. Most Middle Eastern countries are very authoritarian. Some are monarchies while others are Islamo-fascist.

Originally Posted by sippy

the REAL ID Act is the only thing that can stop a national ID card

Um, hello! The REAL ID is a national ID. Who do these idiots think they are kidding?

REAL ID is a state ID program. If you're a legitimate state citizen, then you are a legitimate US citizen.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Originally Posted by sippy

the REAL ID Act is the only thing that can stop a national ID card

Um, hello! The REAL ID is a national ID. Who do these idiots think they are kidding?

REAL ID is a state ID program. If you're a legitimate state citizen, then you are a legitimate US citizen.

No, the REAL ID is a federal program that each state will have to comply too. Each state may have their own amended version, but make no mistake, it's a federal program.
You won't be able to fly, travel, open bank accounts, get credit, or otherwise without this if it goes into affect.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Freedom is not unlimited in a civilized society. Civilization requires a balance between the rights of the individual and the rights of society. If you want unlimited freedom, you can live on your own island.

No one is advocating anarchy. But the social contract formed at the founding of this nation was very specific about the role of government: stay out of people's lives. Our current government demands more of its citizens today than did the English in 1776. With the REAL ID in effect, we can no longer board an airplane (which violates the idea of free enterprise, btw) and can no longer enter a federal building to visit our representatives. The government can freeze your assets, confiscate your house, and leave you to starve in the street if they so please.

It cannot be denied that the government has increasingly inserted itself into its citizens' daily lives over the last hundred years. First for the "temporary" income tax, then for the "temporary social security number", then things like the EPA, smoking laws, and hate crime legislation came into effect, and the veil dropped. This is not what the founders fought for. There is very little connecting today's government with the original one set down in 1776.

A social contract is all well and good, but the balance has undeniably been tipping away from the individual and toward the government. Eventually someone comes along and does away with the facade. They declare themselves Caesar and begin a rule of outright despotism. Every republic in history has followed this course.

The choice we are faced with is a tightening of our current, decentralized system of identification, or the eventual demand by a frightened public for a genuine, centralized national ID system

Only someone on this board that needs the nanny government to hold their hand against all the things that frighten them, like seeing FISA expire and the Real ID would be for this.

This is just the camels nose under the tent, it's all about what is contained in that biometrics strip. First maybe nothing harmless, then comes your personal and financial records, next your medical records and the list goes on.

Maybe even the right to buy and sell.

Who knows what different administrations might add to the strip. With the way the government is going now days, I wouldn't want to find out.

Jonathan wrote:

Anonymity is not a civil right. Cops already have the right to ask for your ID (to see your 'papers').

Then they can see my Drivers License with my picture on it and not a biometrics strip.

If they can send a man to the moon, then I am sure they can make a drivers license fraud proof, but that is not what they really want, is it.

Freedom is not unlimited in a civilized society. Civilization requires a balance between the rights of the individual and the rights of society. If you want unlimited freedom, you can live on your own island.

If you need a nanny government then I suggest you are in the wrong Country.

Originally Posted by apropos

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Freedom is not unlimited in a civilized society. Civilization requires a balance between the rights of the individual and the rights of society. If you want unlimited freedom, you can live on your own island.

No one is advocating anarchy. But the social contract formed at the founding of this nation was very specific about the role of government: stay out of people's lives. Our current government demands more of its citizens today than did the English in 1776. With the REAL ID in effect, we can no longer board an airplane (which violates the idea of free enterprise, btw) and can no longer enter a federal building to visit our representatives. The government can freeze your assets, confiscate your house, and leave you to starve in the street if they so please.

It's also true you cannot enter a courthouse or board an airplane stark naked or drunk.

Darlene wrote:

If you need a nanny government then I suggest you are in the wrong Country.

I don't want a nanny government that tells me how to raise my kids. I want a government that will secure our borders and require a more secure REAL ID so illegals cannot vote or work in my country.
Liberals and the Wall Street Journal oppose real ID because they want illegals to vote or they want cheap illegal labor.

Are you folks even reading the article Jonathan posted thoroughly?

I thought we all agreed that we don't want individual states having the authority to issue driver's licenses to illegals. The REAL ID will bring that practice to a halt.

The standards include verifying the legal status of the applicant, setting the license of a foreign visitor to expire when his visa expires, verifying documents presented by applicants, and modernizing the technology used in licenses.

Honestly, I just don't understand some of the arguments being presented against the REAL ID Act. The REAL ID will accomplish some of what I thought we all wanted. Forget all the hyperbole being offered by the WSJ, illegal immigrant advocates, ACLU, etc. (same arguments being used by some here) and read the bill closely. Please don't read things into the bill that aren't there.

MW, how can you say the Real ID act will be good? Their original proposal is only to give it to illegals, but you know it won't end there. This is the exact same thing that happened to the SSN. Originally back in the 30's when they came out, they were only to represent an account # for one's social security account. Now look what it has evolved into. The Real ID will be the same and they'll try to push it on us under the guise of "safety and protection."
I say this because simply requiring legal aliens to have this will somehow get twisted by the liberal left into some type of discrimination, so their only solution will be to make everyone, legal or natural born citizens follow this. This certainly doesn't sound like freedom to me.
This also is very similar to how the former USSR worked with their so called national "papers" as well.

A new ID scheme isn't the answer. As you know, enforcing the laws would be a hell of a lot better start than this.

NO, NO, NO To Real ID.

No matter which way you try to butter this bread, it is a government sponsored way to keep tabs on each and every one of us.
It also is a branding of sorts, since it requires either some biometric identity, i.e. finger prints, eye scan, etc.

This is the USA, not a Nazi or communist country. We do not brand our citizens in any way. We do not keep tabs on their every move or word.
We have never lived this way nor do I know of any, with the exception of you Jonathan, who want to do so. THE USA IS NOT A POLICE STATE AND WE CITIZENS DO NOT WANT ONE EITHER.

Since it is well known that our government can't keep tabs on what the heck is going on with this country why would anyone want them to keep tabs on any individual citizen?

They are the ones who have allowed illegal foreign nationals in this country each day by their total disregard of our laws and unsecured borders.
They have already broken their promise to the citizenry by allowing several amnesties, when there should have been only one. We no longer can trust or depend upon our own government to enforce our laws and secure our borders, you expect us to trust our goverment with personal information........You are a fool if you think this government who no longer regards its citizens nor its own laws, would stop at just this. It would grow as all things within government do, exponentially. It would be the first step in having every little thing about us so they could potentially use this against us. Its been done before and would be done again. There is not limit to what they would want and use for or against us.

I say nay...I say anyone who actually thinks this is in the best interest of Citizens of the USA is not of sound mind.

I also suggest that supporters of such begin learning about this county and the worlds history lessons.

This is not about hiding something or your common uses of id, its about beginning a branding of a citizen.

Also, Note; we would not be having this discussion if our government hadn't failed in its duties in allowing illegal foreign nationals to enter and stay. Also they were derelict in duty when they did not keep tabs on known people who were dangerous and wished us harm. You know, those terrorists from overseas who came here as phony students, etc. and the government agencies knew they were here but did not know where they were at all times......that's who they should be branding, criminals who commit horrendous crimes to humanity.