Thread: The H-1B Visa Program Mocks Representative Government

dem4labor : I never said that the system back home is superior. In fact, I myself highlighted some of the problems back 'home' I'm not begging for green card.

All I wanted is to let you know the facts as I see it. It is your option to take it or not.

Originally Posted by legalim

if the H1B is abolished the jobs would move offshore at a faster rate and it would hurt the middle class more.

Wrong answer!

There is no difference.
American citizens get fired and replaced by H-1Bs.
American citizens get fired and replaced by Tata employees domociled in Bangalore.
US citizens still go to the unemployment lines!!!
H-1Bs DO NOT SAVE AMERICANS THEIR JOBS
H-1Bs are participants in the DESTRUCTION of US jobs!

Are we supposed to believe that US citizens are any less unemployed when they lose their jobs to H-1Bs?

WHAT A bunch of PROPAGANDA LIES!

The fix is to
STOP VISA EXPANSION

ABOLISH THE H-1B AND L-1 VISA PROGRAMS.
DEPORT ALL H-1Bs and L-1s! and put over a million unemployed US IT workers back to work.

This is that punishment initiative from Citibank. They just fired 9700 US citizens and hired the same number of Tata employees domociled in Bang-Town. This is to punish Americans for failure to support H-1B visa expansion.

If Citibank replaced their 9700 fired American workers with H-1Bs, those who were fired would still be unemployed.

Go home, H-1Bs, you do us no favors by being here.

Originally Posted by The h1b job destroyer

I know that most of the H1Bs stay put in US and become citizens.

The H-1B visa is a NON-immigrant visa.

The H-1B visa program is a sad mistake based upon US political corruption, bribes, and anti-American lobby successes. H-1Bs are placed here to replace American citizens with cheap labor. It's a job destruction visa.

Again, The H-1B visa is a NON-immigrant visa. These H-1Bs are after green cards, so they can hold our jobs indefinately and enjoy the benefits of a de-facto "dual citizenship." Their champion, John Cornyn, demands unmitigated visa expansion and more US job destruction.

A large number of H-1Bs are indentured, by the way. Indentured servitude is an illegal practice that employers should go to prison for.

I almost forgot to mention....

The H-1B visa is a NON-immigrant visa.

Here are a couple links to GAO reports on immigration/Visa overstays (all
kinds).

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0482.pdf
(Chart on page 19 is interesting)

www.gao.gov/new.items/d04170t.pdf


And, there are a few other related articles from CIS here:

http://www.cis.org/articles/Katz/katz1999.html


A few additional thoughts on the subject...

Estimates from the above GAO reports:

7 million total illegal pop. (as of 2003); of those, 2.3 million are thought to be visa overstays. If you weight roughly equally the occurrence of student visa overstays vs. work visa overstays vs. tourist visa overstays (which admittedly, is probably not very realistic, but for a short summary let's go with it... then you'd have approx. about 800,000 in each of the above visa categories (overall total, not on an annual basis).

However, because in sheer relative proportions and ease with which to gain tourist visa, and even student visa, one would logically expect the numbers of these categories to been better represented, and the work-related visas to be less.

But, today the true estimate of the total illegal population is conservatively estimated at 12 million (very likely to be higher in actuality). If you take at face value the estimate of between 50% to 33% as the proportion being illegally in the US that initially entered under legal visa (student, tourist, work visas), etc. then, the total illegal pop. that are considered overstays is approx. 4 million to 6 million. And, assuming again a roughly equally distributed breakdown (again, probably not realistic, but at least a rough ball-park figure...) then, you'd derive estimates of approx. 1.3 million for each category - for the low-end estimate. For the high-end, it would approach about 2 million persons.


In short - the very fact that this conversation is taking place - and that we don't have cold hard counts, not estimates - is an admission that our immigration / visa / tracking system is a mess. To me, this is argument enough to stop allowing all work-related visas UNTIL we know exactly who is here, where they are, if they are working and have these people that are working illegally here removed from the country. For foreign nationals to work in the US without legal permission is a crime.

H1B is a non-immigrant visa that CAN show Immigration Intent.

Otherwise :

1 Why would the employers apply for green card petition for employees ?

2. Why would the US government have laws/procedures pertaining to the conversion ?

3. Why would the employees believe that they can apply for green card as a H1B.

Can a tourist (B1/B2) apply for a green card ? NO

Can a student (F1) apply for a green card ? NO

Can a student apply for H1B ? YES

Can a H1B apply for green card ? YES

Can the spouse of H1B work ? NO (unless he/she him/herself has his/her own H1B)

Can husband/wife who are both in separate H1Bs apply for green card separately ? YES but whoever's petition is the first will be taken in to account for processing the green card for the family

I really appreciate the ability of some people here to understand procedures pertaining to immigration when they do not have to deal with it, but at the same time, the laws have to be interpreted and communicated correctly for people at large.

h1b: Yes, I agree you make good points - but here's my response:

Re:

1 Why would the employers apply for green card petition for employees ?

But doing so, is neither a requirement nor an entitlement for any person or business here.


2. Why would the US government have laws/procedures pertaining to the conversion ?

To better manage and monitor a lengthy process to find who and who not is likely to become a productive citizen in the end

3. Why would the employees believe that they can apply for green card as a H1B.

Can a tourist (B1/B2) apply for a green card ? NO

Can a student (F1) apply for a green card ? NO

Can a student apply for H1B ? YES

Can a H1B apply for green card ? YES


Can the spouse of H1B work ? NO (unless he/she him/herself has his/her own H1B)
We all know what should take place - so this never happens, right?
(Rules and laws are useful ONLY if and when they are enforced)

Yes, this is all understood and is fine. I think the real point of contention between the 2 points of view like in the following - American (US Citizens, especially those in the industries most affected by H1B issues) are increasingly cynical of all work visa programs due to the abuse and fraud noted so far.

Yes, I realize that most proponents of these programs (especially those already here working on these visas) point out that they believe that the level(s) of abuse are minor and do not represent a majority of cases.

So the debate becomes one of: what is an acceptable level of misuse/ abuse/fraud? Our answer invariably will be: none. The proponents tend to couch the answer in terms of: 'well, it exists, but it really isn't significant'.

Of course, if you were the person whose job was just outsourced/ insourced/or otherwise displaced, well, it is significant to you. In short, our view is that the entire debate cannot revolve around an abstract discussion of effects on 'groups' of people, but, should also and necessarily consider effects upon individual American citizens.

Just remember, one day when you complete your naturalization process (if you choose to do so), then you become one of 'us' - the high-dollar, no- longer-indentured skilled laborer. How will you feel about H1Bs and the importation of competing foreign nationals for your job then?

PhredE : Thanks for your comments. I understand your concerns and would be happy to explain to the best of my knowledge.


"But doing so, is neither a requirement nor an entitlement for any person or business here." - There is no requirement nor entitlement, but US government promotes Legal Immigration and one of the ways of doing it is by giving the chance for H1Bs to apply for permanent residency. Some H1Bs apply while some do not. I think US legal immigration policy is almost similar to other nations like Australia, Canada that give points based on ability to speak English, work experience, atleast a Bachelor's degree. If you say that US should stop immigration (both legal and illegal), then I can agree to your viewpoint. But, US government is pro-immigration. The reason I posted my message is because the other poster seemed to indicate that H1Bs cannot apply for green card because it is a non-immigrant visa.

"To better manage and monitor a lengthy process to find who and who not is likely to become a productive citizen in the end " - The length of the process is not consistent and for some it is really quick and for some it is really late and can vary between 10-12 years while family based immigration can vary between 5-18 years according to the country of birth.

"We all know what should take place - so this never happens, right?
(Rules and laws are useful ONLY if and when they are enforced) " - Spouse of H1Bs cannot work in their H4 visa status unless they want to work illegally. H1Bs try hard to be in legally every day that it doesnt make sense for them to ask their spouse to work illegally and be in trouble with DHS later on. Moreover, employers cannot/will not give a job to H4 unless they have H1B because there is no work authorization. What you say makes sense if they are working illegally in non-high skilled labor. For high-skilled labor, there is zero possibility.

I condemn H1B abuse as much as you because deserving candidates do not get an opportunity. I think the laws have to be applied for the people who misuse. I think once the power is taken away from the employers to petition green card on behalf of the employee, there will be NO H1B abuse. You know, why I say this so confidently ? Because, people in H1B whose green card is being sponsored by the employers have their hands tied and the employers know it and hence they can get away with what they want to pay. They cannot go to another employer because they will have to apply all over again for green card. They cannot be promoted internally because they have to apply all over again. I do know/understand that H1B abuse is happening and it should be stopped. But, it cannot be generalized for all H1Bs.

"Just remember, one day when you complete your naturalization process (if you choose to do so), then you become one of 'us' - the high-dollar, no- longer-indentured skilled laborer. How will you feel about H1Bs and the importation of competing foreign nationals for your job then?" - Interesting point! I know my answers will not change. I support H1B AS LONG AS there is a shortage of American workers. I condemn H1B abuse. I condemn reducing wages of American workers and H1Bs. I condemn employers wielding their axe on American workers and H1Bs alike for different reasons. Finally, I HATE illegal immigration!

Originally Posted by h1b

Just remember, one day when you complete your naturalization process (if you choose to do so), then you become one of 'us' - the high-dollar, no- longer-indentured skilled laborer.

Are you indentured?
Don't you know that indentured servitude is illegal in the US?
Are you aware that if you're indentured, you're a participant and an accessory to crime?
Don't you know how to report the crime of indentured servitude?
Are you a Tata employee?

How will you feel about H1Bs and the importation of competing foreign nationals for your job then?

Same as I do right now! I do not owe you my job or my livelyhood. I worked my ass off to achieve where I am today, and I absolutely don't owe you or any other H-1B, illegal, or L-1 visa card holders my job. Your hero, John Cornyn, contends that I do owe my job and my earnings to foreign nationals such as yourself. Did you know that your heros, John Cornyn and Hillary Rodham, also support amnesty for illegals?
Illegals and H-1Bs - have a lot in common.

Interesting point! I know my answers will not change. I support H1B AS LONG AS there is a shortage of American workers.

Wrong answer, and bs propaganda from John Cornyn. The shortage is fabricated, ask any of the nearly 1 millions Americans who lost their jobs to H-1Bs and India based body shop workers.

I condemn H1B abuse.

Then why not report employers (including Tata) that practice indentured servitude?

I condemn reducing wages of American workers and H1Bs.

Then, why not condemn the common practice of "knowledge transfer?" Why not condemn the practice of firing Americans for your sake?

The H-1B is spewing forth propaganda

Originally Posted by The Federation for American Immigration Reform

Sham Worker Shortage

Because H-1B visas are good from three to six years, the number of H-1B foreign workers in the country at any point is the sum of those who have been admitted and remained within the last six years. In 2002, there were an estimated 710,000 H-1B holders in the United States.1 Although the H-1B program is meant to provide companies with labor unavailable in this country, no evidence exists of a worker shortage; to the contrary, the market is filled with laid off, unemployed American high tech workers.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that six percent of people in computer and mathematical occupations were unemployed in April 2003, or 194,000 people (a 25 percent jump from the 4.8 percent unemployment rate for the same time a year earlier).2 Overall high tech unemployment went from two percent in November 2001 to 5.5 percent one year later, and among computer programmers it went from 1.7 percent to 7.8 percent.3 The high tech industry employed ten percent fewer people in December 2002 than it did in January 2001.4 Given the economic downturn and wider pool of available candidates, H-1B numbers should have fallen dramatically—but no such decrease has occurred.

Originally Posted by coto

H-1Bs and their ILLEGAL BROTHERS have much in common!
Their H-1B website is a FARCE!

Hi HotCBNS,

Originally Posted by HOTCBNS

I'M LOST...WHAT IS THIS GROUP? for or against illegal aliens??

No, HotCBNS, you're not lost; only John Cornyn and most of the senate are lost - they lost their will to the Council on Foreign Relations.

The H-1B visa is a NON-immigration visa; they don't come here to immigrate. It's a cheap labor/job destruction visa. They come here to replace American citizens who are being fired.

Small Example: In Jan 2003, USAA Insurance fired 200 programmers in a mass firing. They brought in 200 H-1Bs from Bangalore, India and required their US workers to train them before they got fired. The incident was reported on the local TV news. A USAA official told the reporter that the H-1Bs had skills that didn't exist in the US. Never mind, they were trained to do those "non-existant" skills by workers who would soon be fired.

Big Examples include mass firings of 15,000 workers at a time (HP, IBM etc) where the fired workers were replaced 1 to 1 by H-1Bs and Indian workers domociled in Bang-town.

Company officials affectionately call this KNOWLEDGE TRANSFER
An American "transfers his knowledge to the H-1B, then he gets fired."

A hell of a lot of em are indentured, even though indentured servitude is illegal - they do it anyway and thumb their noses at the law. They send money back to India, just like their illegal brothers send money to mexico.

Let's look at the numbers for a second or two.

Senator Cornyn wants to double the 65,000.

What the numbers really are, are 65,000 new arrivals per year
and the H-1B visa lets them stay 6 years with a 1 year extension. It started out at 200,000 arrivals per year.

So, if we figure 65,000 arrivals per year, that puts us at 455,000 (conservative figure) H-1Bs here today; if John Cornyn has his way, 130,000 will arrive next year bringing the total to 585,000.

But, oh, guess what. Most H-1Bs, when their 6 years is up, they forget to go home. Then they become like their illegal brothers from mexico. ILLEGALS.

Bangalore, India
Home of John Cornyn's real constiuents.

H-1Bs (on their website) continuously demand VISA EXPANSION!

Originally Posted by Kate

H-1B Arrivals are Already DOUBLE the Legal Cap!
US Law Enforcement Failure to Enforce the Cap means at least 65,000 EXCESS Arrivals per Year!

The H1B (high tech worker) visa cap is currently 65,000 per year, and corporations like Microsoft have been lobbying hard for Congress to at least double this number. Now we find out that the US has not been enforcing this cap and the true numbers approved are already double the cap! Un-freaking-believeable!

Is Senator Cornyn aware that his goal to double the 65,000 per year arrival cap has already been met and exceeded? Does he prefer to double the (more accurate) 116,927 (2005 figure) or the 130,497 (2004 figure) of H-1B arrivals per year to guarantee at least 260,000 more US I.T. employee mass-LAYOFFS per year?

According to the Lou Dobbs transcript from January 26, 2007 transcript "The United States citizenship and immigration service finally released its report to Congress on the H1B guest worker visa program....The number of H1B visas an existing guest worker program for skilled workers is capped by Congress at 65,000. Another 20,000 foreign students who graduate from American universities with advanced degrees are also eligible for the visa. ...That's 85,000 visas a year. But the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service approved 116,927 applications in 2005. It approved 130,497 in 2004. ...The reports in 2004 and 2005 were not released until November 20th of last year. A release date that activists find disturbing.

Re: The foreign nationals' push for VISA EXPANSION

Originally Posted by slashdot

This H1-B Visa issue limit is pretty much of a scam. Cisco for one uses tons of L1-B's from Wipro [Wiprospectramind of India] to by-pass this restriction regularly. I imagine that others do too.

Add to this the fact that there's really no effective enforcement going on, this "limit filled in one day" just reeks of political fodder to push for more Visas.

Surprisingly, there are indeed some actual real numbers published on the number of H1-B admissions into the U.S., from the Department of Homeland Security. These numbers appear to confirm that there are a lot more H1-B's entering the country than the Visa limit would suggest.

I'm quoting the following from a discussion on dice.com at: http://seeker.dice.com/olc/thread.jspa?threadID=49 2&tstart=15 [dice.com]

Surprise article coming from India's Dice.com.

Propaganda writers expect the American public to believe that there are a total of 65,000 H-1Bs present in the US at any given time. The truth is, the law allows 65,000 ARRIVALS per year on 6-7 year visas. The lack of enforcement, documented by Kate, reveals even more horrific numbers of arrivals, not counting the illegals (H-1B overstays who forgot to go home). One H-1B posted messages bragging about his 8th year on a 6 year visa.
Look at the actual ARRIVAL COUNT PER YEAR from this source!
John Cornyn and Bill Gates demand these figures be doubled!

Originally Posted by slashdot writer

"Temporary workers and Trainees:" Specialty Occupations(H-1B):

YEAR - H-1B visas Admitted
1996 - 144,458
1997 - 240,947
1998 - 302,421
1999 - 355,065
2001 - 384,191
2002 - 370,490
2003 - 360,498
2004 - 386,821

There are a number of other excellent quotes on the above thread on Dice. It's well worth reading.

http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl ... /03/234201

http://www.sharedprosperity.org/bp187.html

The increasing numbers of jobs and hiring preferences going to H-1Bs, L-1's and body shop workers domociled in Bangalore, Chennai, Pune, Hyderabad, Dehli will result in the complete devastation of all US info tech jobs TWICE OVER, by the end of the year 2010.

An article in one of India's publications last year, indicated that Tata is hiring 10 million additional employees to leverage against our jobs.

Unemployed IT workers can't revert to blue collar - those jobs belong to the illegals (or whatever visa Teddy Kennedy awards them with).

Ratan Tata - hero of the H-1Bs

Another H-1B hero - The ultra-left, Sen. John Cornyn - SELLOUT to American citizens.