Thread: FairTax and Trade

So you don't want to protect our trade with a 23% uniform sales tax that taxes imports the same as domestic products in addition to any tariffs? Wow.

So you don't want to stop the income tax handouts to illegal aliens and penalize them 23% for being in our country? Wow.

You know, that doesn't surprise me. All talk, no action.

Originally Posted by Judy

So you don't want to protect our trade with a 23% uniform sales tax that taxes imports the same as domestic products in addition to any tariffs?

Hey, slapping a 23% tariff would be fine with many here. That is what President Trump did with steel and aluminum. That would handicap imports. But the FairTax would be a tax on top of the tariff, which would just cost Americans more for products. Unlike a tariff, it taxes domestic products as well.

Originally Posted by Judy

So you don't want to stop the income tax handouts to illegal aliens and penalize them 23% for being in our country?

WE DON'T NEED A NEW TAX SYSTEM TO DO THAT! WE CAN DO THAT RIGHT NOW IF CONGRESS WOULD JUST CUT IT OFF!

Originally Posted by jtdc

Hey, slapping a 23% tariff would be fine with many here. That is what President Trump did with steel and aluminum. That would handicap imports. But the FairTax would be a tax on top of the tariff, which would just cost Americans more for products. Unlike a tariff, it taxes domestic products as well.

WE DON'T NEED A NEW TAX SYSTEM TO DO THAT! WE CAN DO THAT RIGHT NOW IF CONGRESS WOULD JUST CUT IT OFF!

Yes, the 23% is slapped on in addition to the tariffs, which should discourage Americans from buying foreign made crap, which helps our businesses reopen their factories here in the US, produce good high quality American made products, hire American Workers, and balance our trade deficits without international disputes, trade agreements, confrontations, trade wars or WTO lawsuits.

Of course if people like you want to purchase foreign made crap instead of American made goods, then yes, you're going to pay for it. You want it, you pay for it, and rightly so. Why should you be rewarded as you are now putting Americans out of work and sucking our money supply out of the country? I can't think of any reason for that, not one at all.

Originally Posted by Judy

Yes, the 23% is slapped on in addition to the tariffs, which should discourage Americans from buying foreign made crap, which helps our businesses reopen their factories here in the US, produce good high quality American made products, hire American Workers, and balance our trade deficits without international disputes, trade agreements, confrontations, trade wars or WTO lawsuits.

Of course if people like you want to purchase foreign made crap instead of American made goods, then yes, you're going to pay for it. You want it, you pay for it, and rightly so. Why should you be rewarded as you are now putting Americans out of work and sucking our money supply out of the country? I can't think of any reason for that, not one at all.

You may be confused. I think it has been fairly will established by numerous sources that the 23% number you keep quoting is inaccurate. Of course you know that.

Originally Posted by MW

You may be confused. I think it has been fairly will established by numerous sources that the 23% number you keep quoting is inaccurate. Of course you know that.

The legislation calls for a 23% FairTax rate, 8.09% earmarked for Social Security and 14.91% for General Revenue. There is no 30% FairTax anywhere. You don't collect 30%, you collect 23%, and you send in 23%, not 30%. You charge customers 30% and you're going to jail, for a long time for tax fraud. And every time you post that crap, you're promoting it, aiding and abetting potential tax fraud against the public.

Originally Posted by Judy

The legislation calls for a 23% FairTax rate, 8.09% earmarked for Social Security and 14.91% for General Revenue. There is no 30% FairTax anywhere. You don't collect 30%, you collect 23%, and you send in 23%, not 30%. You charge customers 30% and you're going to jail, for a long time for tax fraud. And every time you post that crap, you're promoting it, aiding and abetting potential tax fraud against the public.

You're not fooling anyone.

Excerpt:

The Fair Tax Act and Inclusive Taxation

The Fair Tax Act may attempt to improve the current system, which favors the wealthy with loopholes and big deductions, by replacing it with a more equitable system of taxation. However, this may not be the case. While the downsides are troubling, what is most disturbing is how advocates present the plan.

First, let’s quickly review the current sales tax and what the change would mean. Everyone in this country is accustomed to paying what’s called an “exclusive tax” on their purchases. This means we see how much an item costs and then calculate the tax on top of that price. In fact, until I read about the Fair Tax Act, I didn’t know there was any other way to pay sales tax.

Since this is the crux of the Fair Tax plan, it’s worth addressing again. If you purchase an item for $100 that has a 23% tax, you would expect to pay $123 total. This would be an exclusive tax. However, the Fair Tax plan calculates their tax as inclusive. In other words, your $100 purchase already incorporates $77 for how much the item costs and $23 for the actual tax. But a $23 tax on a $77 purchase comes out to 30% the way we currently measure it.

In explaining the plan, it seems that Fair Tax proponents call it a 23% tax so the plan sounds better. And this makes me wonder, what else are they spinning, and why do they misrepresent a crucial aspect of their plan in the first place? If the people vetting the tax plan don’t understand why it’s misleading to talk about an inclusive sales tax, then I suspect other aspects of the plan will be misleading and possibly flawed as well.
On the other hand, if the ruse is intentional (which seems like the rational explanation), what else are they trying to sneak past us, and why? As if the length of the list of cons isn’t enough, this simple bit leads me to suspect that the Fair Tax is anything but fair, and that it’s just another ploy to get the rest of us to pad the pockets of the upper and corporate classes.

https://www.moneycrashers.com/fair-tax-act-explained-pros-cons/


Excerpt:

Studies That Don't Support the Fair Tax

William Gale of the Brookings Institute noted that the FairTax it isn’t accurate to refer to the Fair Tax as 23 percent.

The rate is actually 30 percent. FairTax defines the sales tax as "$0.23 out of every dollar spent." This means there is a $0.23 tax added to every $0.77, not to every dollar, and $0.23 is 30 percent of $0.77. Gale also points out that the tax rate would likely need to be raised even higher. With no IRS to determine wages, states would need to abolish their income tax. This lost state revenue would require an additional 10 percent sales tax to replace it.

Another 5 percent would need to be added to recoup revenue from those who have figured out how to avoid the sales tax. For example, many people would declare more purchases as business expenses, which wouldn't be taxed.

These three adjustments estimate the sales tax at 45 percent. If Americans successfully protested including food and healthcare in the tax, the effective rate could skyrocket to 67 percent.

Gale's calculations show that the Fair Tax would cause taxes to rise for 90 percent of all households. Only those in the highest 10 percent of incomes would get a tax cut. Those in the top 1 percent would receive an average tax cut of over $75,000.

If the Fair Tax Plan was adjusted so households are classified by consumption level, then those in the bottom two-thirds of the distribution would pay less, while those in the top third would pay more. But those at the very top would still pay much less, again receiving a tax cut of about $75,000.

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the-fair-tax-plan-pros-cons-effect-3305765


Excerpt:

The FairTax is a national retail sales tax of 30 percent on the final sale of all new goods and services. All new goods — from cars and houses to prescription drugs and food; and all services — from operations and funerals to rent and haircuts.

https://mises.org/library/flat-tax-n...irtax-not-fair

Excerpt:

The Fair Tax: Is It 23 Percent or 30 Percent?

The actual rate of the so-called "fair tax" is a source of considerable confusion and disagreement.

Proponents of the tax, and legislation before Congress, refer to a tax rate of 23 percent. But this is based on a calculation that most people wouldn't use or understand.

The proponents of the tax arrive at the 23 percent number this way: They say the tax will add 30 cents to every dollar; then they calculate what percentage of the total (cost plus tax) is represented by the tax. In other words, the additional 30 cents represents 23 percent of $1.30. This is called the "tax-inclusive rate."

But if you want to know how much the tax would add to every dollar spent, the answer is 30 percent. This is called the "tax-exclusive rate." To put it more simply, adding 30 cents to every dollar is a 30 percent tax.

This is an example of how semantics can blur substance.

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...oryId=17209388


Excerpt:

The FairTax Rate

The rate of the FairTax is about 30 percent (to be more precise, 29.87%). However, by employing a little FairTax new math, the rate is given by FairTax proponents as 23 percent. Sometimes the caveat is added that the rate is figured inclusively (the tax is included in the price of the product) rather than exclusively (the tax is added to the price of the product). Obviously, it is much easier to sell a national sales tax if the rate is 23 percent instead of 30 percent. Boortz devotes almost eight pages of inclusive/exclusive smoke and mirrors in the book to answering the criticism that the FairTax rate is actually 30 percent.

https://mises.org/library/there-still-no-such-thing-fair-tax#5

The truth is out there for anyone that wants to research it.

Originally Posted by MW

You're not fooling anyone.

Excerpt:



https://www.moneycrashers.com/fair-tax-act-explained-pros-cons/


Excerpt:



https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the-fair-tax-plan-pros-cons-effect-3305765


Excerpt:



https://mises.org/library/flat-tax-n...irtax-not-fair

Excerpt:



https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...oryId=17209388


Excerpt:



https://mises.org/library/there-still-no-such-thing-fair-tax#5

The truth is out there for anyone that wants to research it.

When you learn the difference between a tax and a Anti-FairTax Lobby article about a mark-up, then you should speak. Until then, you should be quiet.

The truth is in the legislation. You sell something for $100, you send $23 to the state not $30.
And you're right, I'm not fooling anyone. You are. This kind of misinformation because you don't understand the difference between a tax and mark-up is really dangerous, scary even. Geez. So irresponsible.

Originally Posted by Judy

Yes, the 23% is slapped on in addition to the tariffs, which should discourage Americans from buying foreign made crap

I think few Americans look at the label to see where a product was manufactured. They look at the price-tag! If a product costs half as much because it is imported from a country where equivalent labor costs 1/10 of American labor, pollution standards are non-existent, and their government is subsidizing production costs, a 23% sales tax will still leave the American product at a great disadvantage. Only a stiff tariff would bring the price up to parity with the American products. Your claim is a farce!

Originally Posted by jtdc

Hey, slapping a 23% tariff would be fine with many here. That is what President Trump did with steel and aluminum. That would handicap imports. But the FairTax would be a tax on top of the tariff, which would just cost Americans more for products. Unlike a tariff, it taxes domestic products as well.

WE DON'T NEED A NEW TAX SYSTEM TO DO THAT! WE CAN DO THAT RIGHT NOW IF CONGRESS WOULD JUST CUT IT OFF!

How can Congress "cut it off"? Congress created these laws, why would they "cut it off"? Hell they just expanded it by doubling the standard deduction and the child care credit.

Under the FairTax the Rebate is a benefit that excludes a certain amount of spending on necessities through the Social Security Administration, not the IRS. To be eligible for any Social Security benefit, you must be a US citizen or a legal resident.

Under the income tax, you do not have to be a citizen or legal resident to pay income tax, so when you file in accordance with the law, then you are automatically eligible for equal treatment under that law under the 14th Amendment.

Originally Posted by Judy

How can Congress "cut it off"? Congress created these laws, why would they "cut it off"?

That's the problem, they are the only cure!

Originally Posted by Judy

Hell they just expanded it by doubling the standard deduction and the child care credit.

And they will be in charge of setting rates for any FairTax!

Originally Posted by Judy

Under the FairTax the Rebate is a benefit that excludes a certain amount of spending on necessities through the Social Security Administration, not the IRS.

The opportunities, from the manufacturer or importer, through the distribution network to the retailer, for a black market are tremendous. And the profit from such a black market would be an irresistible opportunity. And illegal aliens as well as legal citizens will be looking for bargains. How blind you are!

Originally Posted by Judy

To be eligible for any Social Security benefit, you must be a US citizen or a legal resident.

Or steal someone's ID!

Originally Posted by Judy

Under the income tax, you do not have to be a citizen or legal resident to pay income tax

YOU DO NEED A TAXPAYER ID!