Thread: FairTax and Trade

Originally Posted by jtdc

Gee, what is my browser not showing? It does away with all Income Taxes. It doesn't take away tariffs or excise taxes.

Please list all the other things you think that John's "32 words" do!

You can read. What do you think tariffs and excise taxes are calculated on? John's plan is for the states to fund the federal government. This gives each state the duty to come up with its pro-rata share based on the apportionment method, based on population, however each state chooses to do so. Since 45 states in this great country have the dual source of state revenue based on both income and sales taxes, the very thing you all claim you fear is the very thing you end up with, a combo of retail sales taxes and income taxes funding the federal government, another example of grand stupidity that is again like the VAT not available to you, and never will be.

Originally Posted by Judy

So what? You've let them do it your whole life.

I didn't give my permission. I lack the dictatorial power to change it on my own!

Originally Posted by Judy

The only time I hear any of you wanting to repeal the 16th Amendment is when I promote the FairTax which repeals all the income tax laws, which makes the 16th Amendment moot.

That's because this website focuses mostly on immigration. Only when someone brings up a tax proposal do we talk about it!

Originally Posted by Judy

Seems to me MW would want to preserve the 16th Amendment for all his income tax and income tax combo options.

The "repeal" of the 16th Amendment doesn't preclude adopting another taxation method.

Originally Posted by Judy

After all he doesn't think the FairTax is "fair", he thinks it's "fraud", so certainly you wouldn't want to repeal the 16th Amendment with such a tax fraud system like the FairTax in place.

He and a lot more of us agree that the FairTax isn't "fair", and that it's "fraud"!

Originally Posted by Judy

he can stand the thought of having file a monthly 3 line sales tax report

Originally Posted by Judy

And you, well, then there's you, who finds the FairTax "unacceptable", so clearly you'd want to keep the acceptable 16th Amendment on the books and preserve the income tax option.

You totally fail to comprehend what you read!

Originally Posted by Judy

The FairTax legislation has a sunset provision tied to repealing the 16th Amendment within 7 years, so if 3/4 of the states of this great union haven't ratified the amendment to repeal it within 7 years of implementing the FairTax, guess what happens, the FairTax ends by law and you can pick up your marbles and go do whatever else you want to do.

Yeah, sort of like picking up the marbles after Obamacare destroyed a faulty, but superior medical insurance system?

So do we just put the IRS and the Tax Code on hold, just in case, then "Snap-Back" after 7 years? You apparently love chaos!

The one thing that would do is probably force us to create a better tax system rather than go back to what we have now.

Originally Posted by Judy

Well of course you would. You would want to annoy every business and entrepreneur in America and increase their costs to increase the margin on the expense you created for them and pass that along to the next one who will do the same thing and the next one and the next one and the next one, all called compounding, until it gets to the store and you pay them all back with no rebate for your necessities for all their expense, all their trouble, all their margins, all their profit on the expense you created for them.

Judy flips again! She has argued that this does not affect business taxes. Yet now she argues that it will take away those burdens.

This so-called "FairTax" would supposedly fix the federal tax paid by consumers, but if Congress decided they needed more revenue, lookout businesses, as that would be the only thing they could adjust. So it is a lie to claim that this fraud "fair tax" would protect businesses.

Originally Posted by Judy

There is no VAT option available to you nor will there ever be.

Never say "never"! As already shown, we already have "VAT taxes". We just aren't solely dependent on them.

Originally Posted by jtdc

Look at the word "rebate":The use of that word is "spin"! You get that money from the government whether you spend anything or not. It is, effectively, just like Welfare. So tell us you are unaware of anybody living solely off Welfare!

And if Income tax were flat rate, it could just as easily be a three line form. Not an advantage.

If you are a family of 8, that adds up. There are many doing that now.

That's right, you get the Rebate if you sign up for it whether you spend it that month or not, the same as when you claim the Standard Deduction on your income tax whether you used the income offset to pay for necessities or not, the same with the Personal and Dependent Deductions whether you used them to pay for necessities or not. Why would you get a deduction for your necessities from the federal government without having to prove you spent it, something you've gotten since you filed your first income tax return? Because there is no affordable way to document it.

There's no "spin" to the Rebate, it's the same thing as Standard, Personal and Dependent Deductions every taxpayer in America claims every time they file an income tax return. Why are you worried now about undocumented handouts from the federal government when you've enjoyed them for yourself and your family all your life under the present income tax system?

They call it a Rebate under the FairTax because that's what it is called in sales tax lingo. With the income tax it's called a Deduction. Maybe a better semantic would be a FairTax Reduction, because it reduces the amount of FairTax owed by citizens and legal residents, just as a Deduction reduces the amount of income tax owed by income tax filers, to cover necessities of life, without any documentation.

It's so funny how you guys get your panties in a bunch over the 16th Amendment and undocumented reductions in taxes for necessities ONLY WHEN we're talking about the FairTax.

The Congress just doubled the size of this Reduction for the income tax. Not a whimper out of you people about that. Oh no, and it increased the Reduction for people with children all 8, 10, 12 however many you can breed. Not a whimper out of you about that. Not one iota of documentation of an actual expenditure for necessities has EVER in the history of the income tax been required for any of it by the federal government. Oh no. Not a single peep from Johnwk, jtdc, or MW, about doubling the Reductions in the income tax for necessities of life without any documentation of actually spending in on necessities, not a word from any of you hypocrites, all of you and yours broods sucking your income tax welfare like monkeys on bananas your entire lives.

So don't show up here claiming you don't prefer the income tax. Your lives, posts and silence prove you are the Two-Faced Wack-O-Doodlers that have bankrupted this country with the evil folly of the income tax, have absolutely no intention of EVER supporting any plan to end it, and are without the integrity to say so.

SAD!!!!

Originally Posted by Judy

You can read.

Yes, but your nonsense doesn't make sense regardless.

Originally Posted by Judy

What do you think tariffs and excise taxes are calculated on?

Not on the retail price. And not on the income of the companies involved.

Originally Posted by Judy

John's plan is for the states to fund the federal government.

And I don't support John's desired tax system either. That doesn't mean yours is the only other choice!

Originally Posted by Judy

This gives each state the duty to come up with its pro-rata share based on the apportionment method, based on population, however each state chooses to do so.

So each state taxes based on population, which is how your "FairTax" develops it's rates. But states can align their taxes based on local economies. With your "FairTax, a family in New York gets the same amount as a family in North Dakota. In North Dakota it would be a living, in New York it would be "crumbs" to quote Nancy Pelosi! Not exactly "fair"!

Originally Posted by Judy

Since 45 states in this great country have the dual source of state revenue based on both income and sales taxes, the very thing you all claim you fear is the very thing you end up with, a combo of retail sales taxes and income taxes funding the federal government

Wrong! I said I prefer a blend! It's the complex tax code with exemptions and benefits that makes it bad.

Originally Posted by jtdc

Judy flips again! She has argued that this does not affect business taxes. Yet now she argues that it will take away those burdens.

This so-called "FairTax" would supposedly fix the federal tax paid by consumers, but if Congress decided they needed more revenue, lookout businesses, as that would be the only thing they could adjust. So it is a lie to claim that this fraud "fair tax" would protect businesses.

Never say "never"! As already shown, we already have "VAT taxes". We just aren't solely dependent on them.

Who said the FairTax "protects" businesses? It eliminates all federal income based taxes on businesses and individuals. It doesn't change excise taxes, tariffs, imposts or duties that businesses and individuals pay. Those remain in place. No one has ever claimed otherwise, certainly not me.

The FairTax eliminates the present compounding of the income tax. That's all it can do because that's all it does. It doesn't impact any tax other than an income-based tax, i. e. personal income tax, corporate income tax, capital gains tax, dividend tax, gift tax, estate tax, payroll tax, interest tax.

No, the FairTax does not "fix" federal tax paid by consumers and has never claimed it does, no one has, certainly not me. In fact, the FairTax legislation is very specific that Congress is to review the 8.09% earmarked for Social Security and Medicare every two years to ensure that this amount is sufficient to fund the SS Trust Fund, so it's quite obvious from the legislation that from time to time the FairTax rate will change to ensure robust funding of Social Security and Medicare. Any Congress with a cooperating President can also raise or lower the 14.91 General Revenue portion of the FairTax, or make any other adjustment they see fit to do. The difference is you aren't forced to pay it if they raise it. You decide how much FairTax you pay by your spending choices, a choice you don't have with a mandatory income tax.

Originally Posted by jtdc

Yes, but your nonsense doesn't make sense regardless.

Not on the retail price. And not on the income of the companies involved.

And I don't support John's desired tax system either. That doesn't mean yours is the only other choice!

So each state taxes based on population, which is how your "FairTax" develops it's rates. But states can align their taxes based on local economies. With your "FairTax, a family in New York gets the same amount as a family in North Dakota. In North Dakota it would be a living, in New York it would be "crumbs" to quote Nancy Pelosi! Not exactly "fair"!

Wrong! I said I prefer a blend! It's the complex tax code with exemptions and benefits that makes it bad.

That's the same way it is with the Standard Deduction, Personal Deduction and Dependent Deduction and Child Care Tax Credit now. You don't get more because you live in an expensive area and you don't get less because you live in a cheap area. Where you live is your decision, it's always been that way with these "necessities of life" welfare handouts. Why you're squealing like a pig about it now in your Golden Years and only when it's part of the FairTax, just makes me laugh out loud. LOL!!

The FairTax rate is a federal rate, the rate isn't determined by the states, they just collect it from the retailers who collect it for the feds and both are paid a nice fee for the service. It's no different than employers collecting income tax from payrolls for the feds, except employers don't get paid a fee for all this service under the income tax system. They have to hire all these people to process all those withholdings and file a report and send in the money every month. Nightmare. Only a sick person would think forcing employers to hire people to steal wages from their employees is proper. But, you, Johnwk and MW are just fine it and have been your whole lives. Disgusting!!!

If you prefer a "blend" of the income tax and something else, then you prefer the income tax. Otherwise, you would go with the something else.

Like I said, people like the 3 of you are not part of the solution, you are in fact the problem that caused this tragedy that has bankrupted the United States for generations with no end in sight.

Originally Posted by Judy

That's right, you get the Rebate if you sign up for it whether you spend it that month or not, the same as when you claim the Standard Deduction on your income tax whether you used the income offset to pay for necessities or not, the same with the Personal and Dependent Deductions whether you used them to pay for necessities or not.

More attempted spin! IF YOU DON'T WORK, YOU HAVE NO INCOME. THEREFORE YOU CAN GET NO DEDUCTION, AND YOU GET NOTHING!

WITH YOUR SO-CALLED "FAIRTAX" YOU GET SOMETHING FOR NOTHING, JUST LIKE WELFARE!

Originally Posted by Judy

Why would you get a deduction for your necessities from the federal government without having to prove you spent it

So now, to get my Rebate check from your FairTax, I have to prove I spent the money? More paperwork!

Originally Posted by Judy

something you've gotten since you filed your first income tax return?

Only if I earned enough money to trip the minimum reporting level!

Originally Posted by Judy

Because there is no affordable way to document it.

Document what? Your income or your spending? Either one can be supported by receipts!

Originally Posted by Judy

There's no "spin" to the Rebate, it's the same thing as Standard, Personal and Dependent Deductions every taxpayer in America claims every time they file an income tax return.

WRONG! See above!

Originally Posted by Judy

Why are you worried now about undocumented handouts from the federal government when you've enjoyed them for yourself and your family all your life under the present income tax system?

What "undocumented handouts from the federal government"? I've paid taxes most of my life. Business taxes, when I ran a business, as well as Income taxes, and Income Taxes when I worked as an employee. I certainly paid much more than I received. Tax refunds were my money being returned to me.

Originally Posted by Judy

They call it a Rebate under the FairTax because that's what it is called in sales tax lingo.

WRONG! A rebate is money returned from what you have already paid. When I got a rebate for a product I bought, I had to pay for the product first.

Originally Posted by Judy

With the income tax it's called a Deduction.

Which means the amount you pay is reduced. Or, it may be a REFUND! In both cases, you have to pay to get it!

Originally Posted by Judy

Maybe a better semantic would be a FairTax Reduction, because it reduces the amount of FairTax owed by citizens and legal residents, just as a Deduction reduces the amount of income tax owed by income tax filers, to cover necessities of life, without any documentation.

But that is wrong as well. Everybody pays the same amount of tax for the same priced item. The so-called Rebate check comes regardless of what you spend!

Originally Posted by Judy

It's so funny how you guys get your panties in a bunch over the 16th Amendment and undocumented reductions in taxes for necessities ONLY WHEN we're talking about the FairTax.

That's just more of your spin. I would want it repealed even for a VAT type system. I'd probably like it repealed to take away Congress power to impose taxes, I would rather such matters be a ballot measure. The 16th Amendment gives them a free hand to levy whatever taxes they want.

Originally Posted by Judy

The Congress just doubled the size of this Reduction for the income tax.

And since the 16th Amendment would still exist with your FairTax, Congress could either raise the rate of that FairTax or add some other tax along with it. Your argument doesn't hold water.

You don't have to work to get your income tax handouts. I mean look at you. You don't work and you get yours. You're silly.

As to the rest of your post, just more of the same senseless nonsense.

The Anti-FairTaxers now been fully exposed and profiled as the Wack-O-Doodle Dandies they are, so my work here is finished.

Originally Posted by Judy

They call it a Rebate under the FairTax

Baloney. The legislation specifically calls it the "Family Consumption Allowance".

SEC. 301. FAMILY CONSUMPTION ALLOWANCE.



JWK