Thread: FairTax and Trade

Originally Posted by jtdc

Putting the cart ahead of the horse. You are definitely a liberal! It is our duty to finance our government better so they can waste more of our money on programs they want, like providing school, medical and many other benefits to illegal aliens? We elect them to manage our country's finances, but we have no control over how they spend it. Most of us have to live within a budget. They don't and vote themselves a raise which telling us to cut back as they raise our tax rates.


And that is what tariffs are for, not a sales tax.

Post card Income Tax!

That may be what the title indicates, but your posts have been solely a sales pitch for the FairTax!

That is because of the rates of the tariffs, not Income Tax. Canada, "our friend", uses a 270% tariff on imported dairy products. We have nothing that high. Income Tax and Sales Tax will not correct that. A higher price because of a high tariff will result in a higher sales tax. The Income Tax system offers deductions to try to compensate for those high tariffs.

WRONG! The FairTax will add more to the cost as the price goes up!

What a fantasy! So you believe that illegal aliens looking to make thousands of dollars per month won't come because they will have to pay $305 more per month than legal persons?

In a way that's true. I believe in a graduated tax system, which the FairTax is not!

Sure, you prefer the income tax. That's obvious. That's been obvious from day one on the thread. Everyone who opposes the FairTax is addicted to the income tax. Of course you prefer a socialist "graduated income tax", you want to pay less by forcing someone else to pay more, which is redistribution of wealth. That's the goal of the DemoQuacks. They think that's "fair". I don't think that's fair, I think one man, one vote, one tax, one rate and it should be voluntary like the FairTax, your choice how much and when you pay. The income tax is an authoritarian mandated tax, very UnAmerican, and very very UnRepublican, that's why Republicans have been working for years on a national sales tax and the FairTax is the best plan that does it the best way so far to solve the many problems we want to solve.

The thread was started to pitch the FairTax as an easy solution to a complex trade deficit issue our country must solve and solve fast.

Originally Posted by jtdc

So you are a liberal after all. Progressives are people who move to the Democrat party!

I still don't see how it can do that! Tariffs and excises can do that, but a sales tax only raises the cost of everything!

You must have been a cheerleader!

The FairTax doesn't raise the price of anything.

The FairTax operates as a tariff, there's no difference between a tariff and a sales tax on imported goods, it's the same thing monetarily.

Originally Posted by johnwk

Talk about clarity, once again you make stuff up and misrepresent what I have posted and what the alleged fairtax does.


Contrary to you above assertion, that I’m calling “FairTax proponents socialists and progressives”, my words were more specific and directed at “Fifth Column socialist clowns who created the socialist friendly fairtax which offers free government cheese.”

Additionally, the alleged fairtax does not exempt the 23 percent sales tax on necessities of life as you falsely assert. The necessities of life are taxed just as other consumer articles are taxed under the alleged fairtax.

What the socialist friendly fairtax does is create a new socialist entitlement called the ”Family Consumption Allowance” LINK

“SEC. 301. Family consumption allowance.”

“Each qualified family shall be eligible to receive a sales tax rebate each month. The sales tax rebate shall be in an amount equal to the product of—
“(1) the rate of tax imposed by section 101, and
“(2) the monthly poverty level.”


As we can all see, the “family consumption allowance” is a monthly entitlement check sent to every qualified household which they may spend as they please. The monthly entitlement check’s alleged intention, as expressed at fairtax.org, is to prevent “an unfair burden on low-income-families” so they may purchase a rationed supply of “tax-free” purchases, presumably the necessities of life which will have a 23 percent tax added to their cost under the alleged fairtax.

Whether intentional or not, and I believe it is intentional, the family consumption allowance does make “low-income-families” dependent upon our federal government for monthly check to pay for a rationed supply of “tax-free” purchases which in turn encourages these families to vote for socialists who promise to increase the allowance.

We were warned against this very thing in the Federalist Papers? A POWER OVER A MAN's SUBSISTENCE AMOUNTS TO A POWER OVER HIS WILL ____ Hamilton, No. 79 Federalist Papers

In contrast to the alleged fairtax which does tax the necessities of life, our founder’s method to avoid oppressing the poor while taxing articles of consumption, was to exempt articles of necessity from taxation by a “judicious selection of objects proper for such impositions”. See FEDERALIST NO. 21


“There is no method of steering clear of this inconvenience, but by authorizing the national government to raise its own revenues in its own way. Imposts, excises, and, in general, all duties upon articles of consumption, may be compared to a fluid, which will, in time, find its level with the means of paying them. The amount to be contributed by each citizen will in a degree be at his own option, and can be regulated by an attention to his resources. The rich may be extravagant, the poor can be frugal; and private oppression may always be avoided by a judicious selection of objects proper for such impositions. If inequalities should arise in some States from duties on particular objects, these will, in all probability, be counter balanced by proportional inequalities in other States, from the duties on other objects. In the course of time and things, an equilibrium, as far as it is attainable in so complicated a subject, will be established everywhere. Or, if inequalities should still exist, they would neither be so great in their degree, so uniform in their operation, nor so odious in their appearance, as those which would necessarily spring from quotas, upon any scale that can possibly be devised.


It is a signal advantage of taxes on articles of consumption that they contain in their own nature a security against excess. They prescribe their own limit; which cannot be exceeded without defeating the end proposed, that is, an extension of the revenue. When applied to this object, the saying is as just as it is witty, that, "in political arithmetic, two and two do not always make four .'' If duties are too high, they lessen the consumption; the collection is eluded; and the product to the treasury is not so great as when they are confined within proper and moderate bounds. This forms a complete barrier against any material oppression of the citizens by taxes of this class, and is itself a natural limitation of the power of imposing them.”





For confirmation on how our founders intended to tax consumption here is a link to our countries first revenue raising act An Act for laying a Duty on Goods, Wares and Merchandise imported into the United States. Note how each article is selected and a specific amount of tax is laid upon the article selected.



Now, Judy, instead of obfuscating, misdirecting and employing a number of stupid debating tricks, and rambling on and on as you did in your last post, how about discussing the obvious consequences attached to the “family consumption allowance”, which all thinking people would agree creates a dangerous voting block dependent upon government for a monthly subsistence check.

JWK


A nation of people made dependent upon government for their subsistence, is a nation doomed to being enslaved by the iron fist which feeds them.

Yes, that's right, so Americans can buy a ration of goods and services up to the poverty line tax free. That's exactly what the Rebate does, the same as the standard deduction and personal deduction and dependent deductions on the income tax, so you can earn up to a certain amount under the income tax, tax free. It's the same thing. I never hear you whine about that. You just love the income tax, the only difference is you want to pay it through a state instead of the federal government. Funny!!


As I've said, I personally don't care about the Rebate, I'm fine with it either way, with it or without it. However, I love the fact that it distinguishes between Americans and illegal aliens, taxing them more without a Rebate, where Americans pay less because they can receive the Rebate. It puts the illegal aliens at a comparative disadvantage. That's the only reason I would want to keep it. Maybe when we get rid of all the illegal aliens, we could remove the Rebate and reduce the FairTax rate.

Just checked my emails and there was an alert from the FairTax organization about the FairTax and Trade written by the Chairman. Our thread has had so many views because of so many posts that I guess a FairTax supporter saw it and sent it in and the Chairman decided to write a article about it. His article is June 15 and I started our thread on June 9th!!

You just never know who is viewing our threads and posts!!

I hope someone from the White House sees our thread and tells our President Trump, "hey, Judy is on to something here"!! Yes, Mr. President I'm definitely on to something HUUUGE here ... FAIRTAX AND TRADE .... balances the trade deficits without any fuss or muss, trade wars, tariff wars, international disputes, WTO or trade agreements. Easy as sin and simple as pie.

FAIRTAX NOW!!

HR 25 in the US House of Representatives for .... 19 years. Time for Action!!!

jtdc wrote:

Did you graduate high school?

Yes, I did. I also graduated college.

jtdc wrote:

You must have been a cheerleader!

Yes, I was. I was also Student Body President.

Originally Posted by Judy

The money comes from the FairTaxes you pay when you make purchases and consume.

So your statement "No, the FairTax doesn't pay for our necessities or a 'family consumption allowance'." was wrong!

Originally Posted by Judy

If you buy a television from a store for $500 and they give you a $100 Rebate, where does that money for the Rebate come from? It comes from the $500 you paid the store, they're just refunding you the money you paid them. It's the same thing with the Rebate on the FairTax except you should receive the Rebate first of the month so you have it hand to pay the FairTax on your monthly expenses up to the allowance amount.

That's what I said. But unlike the store rebate, you would get the $100 whether you paid the $500 or not! So it is a "Rebate" in name only!

Originally Posted by Judy

No, you still don't understand. The Rebate doesn't pay for the $11,770, it only pays for the 23% FairTax on that amount which is $2,707 a year or $236 a month. No one gets the family consumption allowance, only the TAX on it, which is the same as the tax you pay when you make the purchases.

WRONG AGAIN! You get the "Family Consumption Allowance" whether spend $11,770 or not.

Originally Posted by Judy

No, the Rebate only applies to the Tax, not the whole spending amount. You don't receive $11,770 in Rebate, you only receive 23% of that amount in Rebate which is $2,707 a year or $236 a month.

WRONG AGAIN! The Rebate is what is paid to you, not the tax you paid on the purchase. It is an amount established on mathematics, but will change according to the whims of Congress!

Originally Posted by Judy

Sure, you prefer the income tax. That's obvious. That's been obvious from day one on the thread. Everyone who opposes the FairTax is addicted to the income tax.

WRONG! It just means we don't agree with you that the FairTax is a better way to get revenue!

Originally Posted by Judy

Of course you prefer a socialist "graduated income tax", you want to pay less by forcing someone else to pay more, which is redistribution of wealth.

I admit that. The rich can afford much more tax to support this government than can the poor. And the rich do not get their money by their personal labor. So I feel that money they get by other means should be taxed at a greater rate. But that is not socialism. In socialism, the government/society owns everything. We would all get the same amount of money to live on regardless of how much we earn. Or on finance, maybe all would put their earnings in a pool, regardless of how much they make, and all would draw equally from that pool for their spending. That is not what we have or what I want us to have. Your libertarian side wants a government for the corporation, by the corporation. To you, the corporation is good and all governments should be run by corporations!

Originally Posted by Judy

I don't think that's fair, I think one man, one vote, one tax, one rate and it should be voluntary like the FairTax, your choice how much and when you pay. The income tax is an authoritarian mandated tax, very UnAmerican, and very very UnRepublican, that's why Republicans have been working for years on a national sales tax and the FairTax is the best plan that does it the best way so far to solve the many problems we want to solve.

Well, you got two out of three! "One man, one vote", correct! But "one tax", NO! We don't have all of our eggs in one basket!

So now you claim that paying the FairTax is voluntary? It is an optional contribution, just like donating to a political campaign is voluntary? NO! It is no more voluntary than is Income Tax. You are spinning it that if you don't spend money, you don't have to pay tax. But the same is true for Income Tax. If you don't earn enough, you don't have to pay it.

Originally Posted by Judy

The thread was started to pitch the FairTax as an easy solution to a complex trade deficit issue our country must solve and solve fast.

But you have yet to show how it would affect trade. You keep claiming it will, but I have seen no evidence to support your claim.

Originally Posted by Judy

The FairTax doesn't raise the price of anything.

The FairTax operates as a tariff, there's no difference between a tariff and a sales tax on imported goods, it's the same thing monetarily.

WRONG AGAIN! A tariff taxes products coming into the country according to the rate legislated. That is a VAT tax. That increases the price of the product! The sales tax is then increased by the amount the tariff added to the price. So it "COMPOUNDS' the taxation on the product!

Originally Posted by Judy

That's exactly what the Rebate does, the same as the standard deduction and personal deduction and dependent deductions on the income tax, so you can earn up to a certain amount under the income tax, tax free. It's the same thing.

WRONG, AS USUAL! If you earn less than the "poverty line", you don't have to file taxes, under the Income Tax Code. However, if you are under the "poverty line", you have to sign up for the FairTax Rebate" to get it!

Originally Posted by Judy

As I've said, I personally don't care about the Rebate, I'm fine with it either way, with it or without it.

Your libertarian side wants the poor to starve to death if they can't carry their weight!

Originally Posted by Judy

However, I love the fact that it distinguishes between Americans and illegal aliens, taxing them more without a Rebate, where Americans pay less because they can receive the Rebate. It puts the illegal aliens at a comparative disadvantage.

If our laws were enforced and we offered nothing to illegal aliens so there was nothing to attract them, that wouldn't be a factor. So you want to encourage illegal aliens to come here. They just will have to pay a little extra. Gee, that's like Beezer's fee on aliens coming into this country!

Originally Posted by Judy

That's the only reason I would want to keep it. Maybe when we get rid of all the illegal aliens, we could remove the Rebate and reduce the FairTax rate.

Like I already said, that wouldn't be a deterrent. If they had to pay $305 in tax so they could earn $2000, it would be an attractive deal. After all, many of them pay smugglers $5000 or more to get them in the country so they can earn minimum wage or less!