Thread: Income tax...legal or not...

Judy, you seem well versed in this, so I will direct my question to you mainly.

To my understanding (from study and my fathers many discussions) that our federal government was supposed to work in this way....

The citizen of the state, paid to the county they lived in on goods and property only. This money was then allocated, the county kept some for their needs to do their jobs, then they forwarded the rest onto the state, who then appropriated what amount was needed to govern the state, and what was for the federal government to have for the job we have them there for.

I know, my brief explanation of my understanding is simplified, but is essentially as I understood the founding fathers intent of taxes. Is this basically correct?

Legal or not, the power shift to oppressive government needs to be stopped. It has been a slow march to a near police totalitarian state today.

A little light reading in it can be found here:

Senate Report 93-549

War and Emergency Powers Acts,
Executive Orders and the New World Order


From data available on the web.
The Introduction to Senate Report 93-549 (93rd Congress, 1st Session, 1973) summarizes the situation that we face today - except it is far worse today than it was in 1973 !!


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"A majority of the people of the United States have lived all of their lives under emergency rule. For 40 years [now 66 years], freedoms and governmental procedures guaranteed by the Constitution have, in varying degrees, been abridged by laws brought into force by states of national emergency. The problem of how a constitutional democracy reacts to great crises, however, far antedates the Great Depression. As a philosophical issue, its origins reach back to the Greek city-states and the Roman Republic. And, in the United States, actions taken by the Government in times of great crises have - from, at least, the Civil War - in important ways, shaped the present phenomenon of a permanent state of national emergency."


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The Foreword to the Report states in part -


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"Since March 9, 1933, the United States has been in a state of declared national emergency. In fact, there are now in effect four presidentially proclaimed states of national emergency: In addition to the national emergency declared by President Roosevelt in 1933, there are also the national emergency proclaimed by President Truman on December 16, 1950, during the Korean conflict, and the states of national emergency declared by President Nixon on March 23, 1970, and August 15, 1971.

These proclamations give force to 470 provisions of Federal law [hundreds more since 1973, particularly in the Clinton administration since Jan 21, 1993]. These hundreds of statutes delegate to the President extraordinary powers, ordinarily exercised by the Congress, which affect the lives of American citizens in a host of all-encompassing manners. This vast range of powers, taken together, confer enough authority to rule the country without reference to normal Constitutional processes.

Under the powers delegated by these statutes, the President may: seize property; organize and control the means of production; seize commodities; assign military forces abroad; institute martial law; seize and control all transportation and communication; regulate the operation of private enterprise; restrict travel; and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens."


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When the Southern states walked out of Congress on March 27, 1861, the quorum to conduct business under the Constitution was lost. The only votes that Congress could lawfully take, under Parliamentary Law, were those to set the time to reconvene, take a vote to get a quorum, and vote to adjourn and set a date, time, and place to reconvene at a later time, but instead, Congress abandoned the House and Senate without setting a date to reconvene. Under the parliamentary law of Congress, when this happened, Congress became sine die (pronounced see-na dee-a; literally "without day") and thus when Congress adjourned sine die, it ceased to exist as a lawful deliberative body, and the only lawful, constitutional power that could declare war was no longer lawful, or in session.

The Southern states, by virtue of their secession from the Union, also ceased to exist sine die, and some state legislatures in the Northern bloc also adjourned sine die, and thus, all the states which were parties to creating the Constitution ceased to exist. President Lincoln executed the first executive order written by any President on April 15, 1861, Executive Order 1, and the nation has been ruled by the President under executive order ever since. When Congress eventually did reconvene, it was reconvened under the military authority of the Commander-in-Chief and not by Rules of Order for Parliamentary bodies or by Constitutional Law; placing the American people under martial rule ever since that national emergency declared by President Lincoln. The Constitution for the United States of America temporarily ceased to be the law of the land, and the President, Congress, and the Courts unlawfully presumed that they were free to remake the nation in their own image, whereas, lawfully, no constitutional provisions were in place which afforded power to any of the actions which were taken which presumed to place the nation under the new form of control.

President Lincoln knew that he had no authority to issue any executive order, and thus he commissioned General Orders No. 100 (April 24, 1863) as a special field code to govern his actions under martial law and which justified the seizure of power, which extended the laws of the District of Columbia, and which fictionally implemented the provisions of Article I, Section 8, Clauses 17-18 of the Constitution beyond the boundaries of Washington, D.C. and into the several states. General Orders No. 100, also called the Lieber Instructions and the Lieber Code, extended The Laws of War and International Law onto American soil, and the United States government became the presumed conqueror of the people and the land.

Martial rule was kept secret and has never ended, the nation has been ruled under Military Law by the Commander of Chief of that military; the President, under his assumed executive powers and according to his executive orders. Constitutional law under the original Constitution is enforced only as a matter of keeping the public peace under the provisions of General Orders No. 100 under martial rule. Under Martial Law, title is a mere fiction, since all property belongs to the military except for that property which the Commander-in-Chief may, in his benevolence, exempt from taxation and seizure and upon which he allows the enemy to reside.

President Lincoln was assassinated before he could complete plans for reestablishing constitutional government in the Southern States and end the martial rule by executive order, and the 14th Article in Amendment to the Constitution created a new citizenship status for the new expanded jurisdiction. New laws for the District of Columbia were established and passed by Congress in 1871 (Congressional Act of 1871 http://www.byronwine.com/FILES/1871.pdf), supplanting those established Feb. 27, 1801 and May 3, 1802. The District of Columbia was re-incorporated in 1872, and all states in the Union were reformed as Franchisees of the Federal Corporation so that a new Union of the United States could be created. The key to when the states became Federal Franchisees is related to the date when such states enacted the Field Code in law. The Field Code was a codification of the common law that was adopted first by New York and then by California in 1872, and shortly afterwards the Lieber Code was used to bring the United States into the 1874 Brussels Conference and into the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907.

In 1917, the Trading with the Enemy Act (Public Law 65-91, 65th Congress, Session I, Chapters 105, 106, October 6, 1917) was passed and which defined, regulated and punished trading with enemies, who were then required by that act to be licensed by the government to do business. The National Banking System Act (Public Law 73-1, 73rd Congress, Session I, Chapter 1, March 9, 1933), Executive Proclamation 2038 (March 6, 1933), Executive Proclamation 2039 (March 9, 1933), and Executive Orders 6073, 6102, 6111 and 6260 prove that in 1933, the United States Government formed under the executive privilege of the original martial rule went bankrupt, and a new state of national emergency was declared under which United States citizens were named as the enemy to the government and the banking system as per the provisions of the Trading with the Enemy Act. The legal system provided for in the Constitution was formally changed in 1938 through the Supreme Court decision in the case of Erie Railroad Co. v. Tompkins, 304 US 64, 82 L.Ed. 1188.

On April 25, 1938, the Supreme Court overturned the standing precedents of the prior 150 years concerning "COMMON LAW" in the federal government.


THERE IS NO FEDERAL COMMON LAW, AND CONGRESS HAS NO POWER TO DECLARE SUBSTANTIVE RULES OF COMMON LAW applicable IN A STATE, WHETHER they be LOCAL or GENERAL in their nature, be they COMMERCIAL LAW or a part of LAW OF TORTS." (See: ERIE RAILROAD CO. vs. THOMPKINS, 304 U.S. 64, 82 L. Ed. 118
The significance is that since the Erie Decision, no cases are allowed to be cited that are prior to 1938. There can be no mixing of the old law with the new law. The Common Law is the fountain source of Substantive and Remedial Rights, if not our very Liberties. (See also: Who is Running America?)

In 1945 the United States gave up any remaining national sovereignty when it signed the United Nations Treaty, making all American citizens subject to United Nations jurisdiction. The "constitution" of the United Nations may be compared to that of the old Soviet Union.

Documentation -

Executive Order 1 - http://www.historyplace.com/lincoln/proc-1.htm;

General Orders No. 100 (April 24, 1863) "Lieber Code" -
http://www.tufts.edu/departments/fletch ... -CODE.txt;

Senate Report 93-549 (93rd Congress, 1st Session, 1973) -
http://www.barefootsworld.net/war_ep1.html;

The Trading with the Enemy Act (Public Law 65-91, 65th Congress, Session I, Chapters 105, 106, October 6, 1917);

National Banking System Act (Public Law 73-1, 73rd Congress, Session I, Chapter 1, March 9, 1933);

Executive Proclamation 2038 (March 6, 1933); Executive Proclamation 2039 (March 9, 1933);

Executive Orders 6073, 6102, 6111 and 6260;

Title 12 USC, Section 95a - http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/12/95.html;

Erie Railroad Co. v. Tompkins, 304 US 64, 82 L.Ed. 1188;

and the United Nations Treaty.

All documentation is available through your local government document repository library branch or at the Library of Congress.

Observations - Arguments which suggest that the Treaty of Paris of 1783 was not a lawful or legal treaty of peace between warring nations and that the American Colonies never really attained or obtained lawful or legal sovereignty, must also presume, by their own argument, that the Constitution for the united States of America and the Bill of Rights were never organic documents of true lawful or legal standing.

Conclusion - The Constitution for the united States of America and the Bill of Rights are no longer in effect in their original form or where they conflict with the United Nations Treaty and other international agreements. Citizens of the several States of the Union who were formerly sovereigns protected by the common law are now United States citizens and are thus subjects to International Admiralty jurisdiction.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/war_ep.html

Then if you wish to dive deeper into it, go here:

Undermining The Constitution

A HISTORY OF LAWLESS GOVERNMENT

By Thomas James Norton

Member of the Bars of the Supreme Court of the United States, the United States Circuit Courts of Appeals for the 7th, 8th, and 9th Circuits, and the Supreme Courts of Illinois, Kansas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California.

New York -- 1950

THE DEVIN-ADAIR COMPANY

http://www.barefootsworld.net/nortonuc.html

The chapters aren't too bad, and they are very informative.

Hylander_1314


Great post. How many will truly understand it. You might want to check out dirtyunclesam.com...it is at the bottom of my posts. And don't forget that Lincoln and Kennedy died for the same reason...they apposed the banks. Great resurch there on my blog below... wheredidthestimulusmoneygo...

Thanks. Keep up the great posts.

PROMISED:

Our Social Security
Franklin Delano. Roosevelt , a Democrat, introduced Social Security (FICA) Program. He Promised:

1.) That participation in the Program would be Completely voluntary,
2.) That the participants would only have to pay 1% of the first $1,400 of their annual Incomes into the Program,
3.) That the money the participants elected to put Into the Program would be deductible from Their income for tax purposes each year,
4.) That the money the participants put into the Independent 'Trust Fund' rather than into the General operating fund, and therefore, would Only be used to fund the Social Security Retirement Program, and no other Government program, and
5.) That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income.

Since many of us have paid into FICA for years and are now receiving a Social Security check every month -- and then finding that we are getting taxed on 85% of the money we paid to the Federal government to 'Put Away'




"A government big enough
to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have!!!"
Thomas Jefferson

Been over to Dirty Uncle Sam. Emailed is it Don(?) over there. Can't remember right off, but this ties into in more depth what he has going on over there. I need to forward this to him, so he may also have a better understanding of what he is researching.

But what it boils down to is that we've been in a perpetual pseudo state of martial law and emergency for 76 years, and off and on to degrees since 1861.

It is an interesting position to be in for a people who are a peace loving people, with no malice toward others, as we are supposed to be touted as.

If you followed the link to "Undermining the Constitution, it was written when there were only 48 states in the union, so it has been known for some time, but how many are taught this in school? If not, why? This is what Adams warned of with vain and designing men worming their way into public office, and the nation being ever more in need of her patriots.

Glad you liked the post! Hope it helps!

Originally Posted by hardlineconstitutionalist

PROMISED:

Our Social Security
Franklin Delano. Roosevelt , a Democrat, introduced Social Security (FICA) Program. He Promised:

1.) That participation in the Program would be Completely voluntary,
2.) That the participants would only have to pay 1% of the first $1,400 of their annual Incomes into the Program,
3.) That the money the participants elected to put Into the Program would be deductible from Their income for tax purposes each year,
4.) That the money the participants put into the Independent 'Trust Fund' rather than into the General operating fund, and therefore, would Only be used to fund the Social Security Retirement Program, and no other Government program, and
5.) That the annuity payments to the retirees would never be taxed as income.

Since many of us have paid into FICA for years and are now receiving a Social Security check every month -- and then finding that we are getting taxed on 85% of the money we paid to the Federal government to 'Put Away'




"A government big enough
to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have!!!"
Thomas Jefferson

Yes, but how many times was the social security fund raided? I think Johnson did it to help finance Vietnam, just to name one. This why I don't trust them. They make false promises, or as the American Tribes were often quoted as saying, white man speak with forked tongue. And it's true. They have and it isn't just the palefaces anymore and it isn't just the men, as they all do it from all sides and colors. I have to quote Mark Twaine, in that I trust government in session, like I trust a 2 year old with a hammer.

It's like everything else that came along. They were all traps to get everybody on the bandwagon. The 401k wasn't supposed to be taxed. SS wasn't supposed to be taxed. But give them 10 to 20 years and they'll figure out a way to swindle it out of you under the color of law and regulation.

Originally Posted by AmericanElizabeth

Judy, you seem well versed in this, so I will direct my question to you mainly.

To my understanding (from study and my fathers many discussions) that our federal government was supposed to work in this way....

The citizen of the state, paid to the county they lived in on goods and property only. This money was then allocated, the county kept some for their needs to do their jobs, then they forwarded the rest onto the state, who then appropriated what amount was needed to govern the state, and what was for the federal government to have for the job we have them there for.

I know, my brief explanation of my understanding is simplified, but is essentially as I understood the founding fathers intent of taxes. Is this basically correct?

No, not really. Initially, almost all the funding for the operation of the federal government was paid for with tariffs, imposts and duties on imported goods which were passed onto the consumers in the prices the people paid for their products and collected by businesses. Only if that was insufficient, usually only during war, were direct taxes assessed to the states based on apportionment which was based on head count per the Census and then it was up to each state to figure out how to come up with the money needed to pay to the federal government. They could use income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, capitation tax, whatever method they wanted. For example, today under the US Constitution, the federal government could charge each state based on the population its pro-rata or apportioned share of the budget deficit plus the $14 trillion debt and the states would be constitutionally bound to raise the money and submit it post haste. They could send each household an assessment, they could double or triple income taxes, they could increase corporate income taxes, capital gains taxes, they could quadruple property taxes, they could quintuple sales taxes, they could and would likely need to do all of the above. The direct tax apportionment method was established for emergencies because at that point it becomes a mandatory tax on the states which makes it a mandatory tax on the people of the state.

Then in the early 1800's, more money was needed and they added excise taxes on corporations based on their income. This ultimately became the corporate income tax. They also used excise taxes on certain products. So they used tariffs, imposts, duties, excise taxes on products, and corporate privilege excise taxes on incomes.

During the Civil War as a war measure Lincoln used a temporary income tax to fund the war. This measure was repealed soon after the war was over.

Then we march along with all these different federal taxes all on corporations and businesses all embedded in the price of goods to consumers.

Then comes 1913. The desire for more money. Then comes the individual income tax. And that's where we are today. The individual income tax generates about $1 trillion in revenue from individual income tax. corporate income tax $222 billion, business excise taxes $77 billion, customs and duties $23 billion, estate and gifts $20 billion, deposits on earnings $22 billion and $16 billion in "other" (fees, fines, regulatory collections, etc.). These sources fund general revenue.

Then employees and employers pay another $949 billion in Social Security and MediCare taxes, each pay half or if you're self-employed you pay both at the rate of 15.30%.

So our government has changed so much from the day of our founders that's it very difficult to compare it. The states have rarely if ever to my knowledge been called upon to raise the money to fund the federal government under the direct tax apportionment method of the Constitution.

But the long and short of it is, that from the beginning of our nation, the intent was to use tariffs, imposts, duties and excise taxes to fund the federal government. These are all taxes on products and services. Then if there's a shortfall or an emergency, then the direct tax through the apportionment method was to be utilized. Today, that method isn't used because of instead of billing the states for the shortfall, the federal government borrows the money, the debt accumulates, the interest increases the amount due, and the need for more taxes grows. The people are powerless to stop it because today under the federal income tax, you have no power to do so. You don't control your taxes mandated on you and you don't control the debt the goverment borrows in your name.

The present system is not at all what the founders intended. What the founders intended was to tax products and services, which are indirect taxes, and pass these on to consumers through the business transactions.

So how do work our way back to a free and voluntary system that works? Well, there are several ways to do it, 1 way is a national sales tax, an indirect tax on goods, operating like a tariff or excise taxes but on everything which is passed on to consumers. 2 way is national retail sales tax that's applied only to new products and services and passed on to consumers. 3 way is to tax corporations an income tax high enough to pay all the costs of government which they pass on to consumers. 4 way is a VAT tax which is a form of sales tax which is charged on all the goods and services based on value-added at each step of the manufacturing, distribution and retail levels and passed on to consumers. 5 income tax on both corporations and individuals and tariffs, excises, imposts and duties plus payroll taxes like we have now or 6 a FairTax that is like 2 but with a Rebate that exempts essential spending paid for by consumers, along with the existing excise taxes, tariffs, imposts and duties, etc.

The FairTax doesn't eliminate the excise taxes or tariff, imposts or duties taxes because they're involved with different legislations and ear-marked to different departments, like the gas tax is an excise tax and ear-marked for roads and bridges and the cigarette tax is an excise tax and ear-marked to fund SCHIP, and customs duties, imposts and tariffs are part of complex trade agreements, so the FairTax doesn't mess with any of those at this time.

The FairTax repeals the following existing income taxes:

1. corporate income tax
2. individual income tax
3. capital gains tax on both individuals and corporations
4. payroll taxes (SS and MediCare) on both individuals and corporations
5. gift taxes
6. estate taxes
7. interest taxes
8. trust taxes
9. dividends taxes

It abolishes the IRS, eliminates all corporate and individual income tax returns and ends all income tax reporting, quarterly estimated income, withholding taxes, everything related to these 9 taxes for both individuals and corporations.

Retail businesses collect the FairTax from consumers and report it on their monthly state sales tax report. It's 1 line added to that report and they are paid for the service to do this as are the states who collect these reports and the tax revenues and then submit a state report to the feds and send in the money once a month. 12 reports the same as most of the businesses submit now.

The two primary deviations from what our founders anticipated is the loss of the primary source of revenue which were the tariffs. Free Trade has destroyed that even though we have increase our imports as a % of GDP dramatically, we've lost the tax revenue which at 25% of $2.5 trillion a year in imports would be $600 billion a year. The FairTax re-captures that because imports are taxed the same as domestically produced goods at the 23% rate at the final point of sale.

[quote="MW"][quote]
Fair Tax Isn’t Fair
by peggy nuckles in Issues, November 26, 2009

A Fair Tax isn’t Fair.

Suzy Smith and Jenny Jones were twin sisters. Suzy worked at a small mid-western plant making $20,000 a year. Jenny made about the same amount after business deductions in her beauty shop.

Suzy never married but had two teenage daughters. The three of them struggled to make it on Suzy’s salary, but they got by, renting a small house for $400.00 a month.

Her sister Jenny was married to Frank Jones who also worked at the plant as a skilled technician making $40,000 a year. They had a fifteen year old daughter and made mortgage payments of $1,000 a month.

Back before the Fair Tax was passed into law, Suzy took her standard deduction of $8.000 as a head of household plus $1,000 for each of her two children. She then paid a tax of 10% on her remaining $10,000. “Life is hard enough,â€

I'd love to see the IRS dismantled and gone.........

Well, as I said, my understanding was limited, and simplified at that. We have an income tax in Oregon, and it is outrageous. We are barely at the threshold of being in the "middle class" income bracket, and already owe tax to the state every year (no we do not own property, this is just from our income).

In fact the state takes more in income tax than does the federal government (and yet we are having financial troubles in our state?....).

Originally Posted by Hylander_1314

Been over to Dirty Uncle Sam. Emailed is it Don(?) over there. Can't remember right off, but this ties into in more depth what he has going on over there. I need to forward this to him, so he may also have a better understanding of what he is researching.

But what it boils down to is that we've been in a perpetual pseudo state of martial law and emergency for 76 years, and off and on to degrees since 1861.

It is an interesting position to be in for a people who are a peace loving people, with no malice toward others, as we are supposed to be touted as.

If you followed the link to "Undermining the Constitution, it was written when there were only 48 states in the union, so it has been known for some time, but how many are taught this in school? If not, why? This is what Adams warned of with vain and designing men worming their way into public office, and the nation being ever more in need of her patriots.

Glad you liked the post! Hope it helps!

Burce Ray is the site owner. He loves to talk to anyone that has a grasp of all this. I am sure you would enjoy getting to know him. He may be running for office. If you have a blog or anything you have written...he will post it on his site. He is a really good guy. Thanks