Thread: Tea Party Activists beware: fairtax con artists are back!

Judy,

Why do you want to put every American family on the public dole?

H.R.25 proposes:

`SEC. 301. FAMILY CONSUMPTION ALLOWANCE.
`Each qualified family shall be eligible to receive a sales tax rebate each month. The sales tax rebate shall be in an amount equal to the product of--
`(1) the rate of tax imposed by section 101, and
`(2) the monthly poverty level.

`SEC. 302. QUALIFIED FAMILY.
`(a) General Rule- For purposes of this chapter, the term `qualified family' shall mean 1 or more family members sharing a common residence. All family members sharing a common residence shall be considered as part of 1 qualified family.

SEC. 304. REBATE MECHANISM.
`(a) General Rule- The Social Security Administration shall provide a monthly sales tax rebate to duly registered qualified families in an amount determined in accordance with section 301.


The whole idea of the family consumption entitlement creates another captive voting block dependent upon a monthly government check, who will then be manipulated by the Washington Establishment progressives.

How did Obama just get elected? Didn’t he promise to send a check to millions of people, calling it a tax cut? But 40 percent of the 95 percent of the people eligible for his “tax cutâ€

[quote=johnwk]

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by johnwk

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by johnwk

Originally Posted by "Judy":1ich16nn

The FairTax repeals all INCOME-BASED taxes and replaces them with a national retail sales tax ...

That is not true Judy. There is nothing inTHE TEXT OF THE LEGISLATION withdrawing, or proposing to withdraw, the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, as were imposed under the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909.

You really need to stop posting inaccurate information.


JWK

You really need to read up on what an excise tax is, along with what the US Constitution authorizes in Article 1, Section 8.

Oh here, I'll help you:

Judy, you did write The FairTax repeals all INCOME-BASED taxes


I can find nothing inTHE TEXT OF THE LEGISLATION withdrawing, or proposing to withdraw, the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, [INCOME-BASED taxes] as were imposed under the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909.


Please post that provision from the text of the proposed legislation.


JWK

The corporate income tax is part of the income taxes presently authorized by the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and 2009, Subchapter A, which is repealed by the FairTax in Section 101 of the FairTax legislation.

Here is the text of the legislation that repeals federal income taxes.

"SEC. 101. INCOME TAXES REPEALED.

Judy,

You are not answering the question. Please post the provision from the text of H.R. 25 which proposes to withdraw the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, [INCOME-BASED taxes] as were imposed under the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909.

SEC 101 which you posted refers to income taxes. It makes no mention of repealing Congress’ power to impose excise taxes which may be calculated from profits and gains. There is a big difference between an income tax and an excise tax. In addition, to withdraw the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, it would take a constitutional amendment having the following, or similar wording: Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

Where is the wording in the text of H.R. 25 proposing to forbid Congress to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money?


JWK


"In matters of power let no more be heard of confidence in men, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution. ...Jefferson[/quote:1ich16nn]

The FairTax doesn't "forbid". It repeals the laws that authorize the income tax. It also has a 7 year sunset provision for the states to repeal the 16th Amendment.

[quote=Judy][quote=johnwk]

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by johnwk

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by "johnwk":2631ka4k

Originally Posted by "Judy":2631ka4k

The FairTax repeals all INCOME-BASED taxes and replaces them with a national retail sales tax ...

That is not true Judy. There is nothing inTHE TEXT OF THE LEGISLATION withdrawing, or proposing to withdraw, the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, as were imposed under the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909.

You really need to stop posting inaccurate information.


JWK

You really need to read up on what an excise tax is, along with what the US Constitution authorizes in Article 1, Section 8.

Oh here, I'll help you:

Judy, you did write The FairTax repeals all INCOME-BASED taxes


I can find nothing inTHE TEXT OF THE LEGISLATION withdrawing, or proposing to withdraw, the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, [INCOME-BASED taxes] as were imposed under the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909.


Please post that provision from the text of the proposed legislation.


JWK

The corporate income tax is part of the income taxes presently authorized by the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and 2009, Subchapter A, which is repealed by the FairTax in Section 101 of the FairTax legislation.

Here is the text of the legislation that repeals federal income taxes.

"SEC. 101. INCOME TAXES REPEALED.

Judy,

You are not answering the question. Please post the provision from the text of H.R. 25 which proposes to withdraw the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, [INCOME-BASED taxes] as were imposed under the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909.

SEC 101 which you posted refers to income taxes. It makes no mention of repealing Congress’ power to impose excise taxes which may be calculated from profits and gains. There is a big difference between an income tax and an excise tax. In addition, to withdraw the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, it would take a constitutional amendment having the following, or similar wording: Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

Where is the wording in the text of H.R. 25 proposing to forbid Congress to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money?


JWK


"In matters of power let no more be heard of confidence in men, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution. ...Jefferson[/quote:2631ka4k]

The FairTax doesn't "forbid". It repeals the laws that authorize the income tax. It also has a 7 year sunset provision for the states to repeal the 16th Amendment.[/quote:2631ka4k]



Thank you Judy for finally confirming the alleged fair tax does not forbid, nor proposes to forbid Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains which may be laid even if the 16th Amendment were to be repealed.

Now, what about the family consumption allowance? Is it not true that the provision proposes to send a monthly government check to every qualified family in America regardless of how they spend or earn their money? Wouldn’t it make a vast amount of those who vote dependent upon a monthly government check?


JWK

[quote="johnwk"]Judy,

Why do you want to put every American family on the public dole?

H.R.25 proposes:

`SEC. 301. FAMILY CONSUMPTION ALLOWANCE.
`Each qualified family shall be eligible to receive a sales tax rebate each month. The sales tax rebate shall be in an amount equal to the product of--
`(1) the rate of tax imposed by section 101, and
`(2) the monthly poverty level.

`SEC. 302. QUALIFIED FAMILY.
`(a) General Rule- For purposes of this chapter, the term `qualified family' shall mean 1 or more family members sharing a common residence. All family members sharing a common residence shall be considered as part of 1 qualified family.

SEC. 304. REBATE MECHANISM.
`(a) General Rule- The Social Security Administration shall provide a monthly sales tax rebate to duly registered qualified families in an amount determined in accordance with section 301.


The whole idea of the family consumption entitlement creates another captive voting block dependent upon a monthly government check, who will then be manipulated by the Washington Establishment progressives.

How did Obama just get elected? Didn’t he promise to send a check to millions of people, calling it a tax cut? But 40 percent of the 95 percent of the people eligible for his “tax cutâ€

[quote=johnwk][quote=Judy][quote=johnwk][quote=Judy][quote=johnwk][quote="Judy":2vm038d0][quote="johnwk":2vm038d0][quote="Judy":2vm038d0]The FairTax repeals all INCOME-BASED taxes and replaces them with a national retail sales tax ...[/quote]

That is not true Judy. There is nothing in[url=http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.25:..][b][u][color=BLUE]THE TEXT OF THE LEGISLATION[/color][/u][/b][/url] withdrawing, or proposing to withdraw, the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, as were imposed under the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909.

You really need to stop posting inaccurate information.


JWK[/quote]

You really need to read up on what an excise tax is, along with what the US Constitution authorizes in Article 1, Section 8.

Oh here, I'll help you:

[/quote]


Judy, you did write [b][i]The FairTax repeals all INCOME-BASED taxes[/i][/b]


I can find nothing in[url=http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.25:..][b][u][color=BLUE]THE TEXT OF THE LEGISLATION[/color][/u][/b][/url] withdrawing, or proposing to withdraw, the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, [INCOME-BASED taxes] as were imposed under the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909.


Please post that provision from the text of the proposed legislation.


JWK[/quote]

The corporate income tax is part of the income taxes presently authorized by the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and 2009, Subchapter A, which is repealed by the FairTax in Section 101 of the FairTax legislation.

Here is the text of the legislation that repeals federal income taxes.

"SEC. 101. INCOME TAXES REPEALED.
[/quote]


Judy,

You are not answering the question. Please post the provision from the text of H.R. 25 which proposes to withdraw the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, [INCOME-BASED taxes] as were imposed under the Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909.

SEC 101 which you posted refers to income taxes. It makes no mention of repealing Congress’ power to impose excise taxes which may be calculated from profits and gains. There is a big difference between an income tax and an excise tax. In addition, to withdraw the power of Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and/or gains, it would take a constitutional amendment having the following, or similar wording: [b][i]Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money[/i][/b]

Where is the wording in the text of H.R. 25 proposing to forbid Congress to [b][i]lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money[/i][/b]?


JWK


[b][i]"In matters of power let no more be heard of confidence in men, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution[/i][/b]. ...Jefferson[/quote:2vm038d0]

The FairTax doesn't "forbid". It repeals the laws that authorize the income tax. It also has a 7 year sunset provision for the states to repeal the 16th Amendment.[/quote:2vm038d0]



Thank you Judy for finally confirming the alleged fair tax does not forbid, nor proposes to forbid Congress to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains which may be laid even if the 16th Amendment were to be repealed.

Now, what about the family consumption allowance? Is it not true that the provision proposes to send a monthly government check to every qualified family in America regardless of how they spend or earn their money? Wouldn’t it make a vast amount of those who vote dependent upon a monthly government check?


JWK[/quote:2vm038d0]

That's correct and no one has ever claimed otherwise. The US Congress can't forbid what the Constitution authorizes. It can only repeal the income tax laws we no longer want. If the 16th Amendment is repealed subsequently, as I believe it will be, since the FairTax generates a new revenue source for the states through their share of the collections of the FairTax, then there would be no further constitutional authorization of income taxes.

As you've pointed out, the Constitution is very clear about excise taxes being authorized. There is a dispute over whether those can be calculated based on net income for the privilege of operating through a corporation, and US Supreme Court Rulings are not clear either. One said yes, and another said no. The 16th Amendment made the debate moot. However, with repeal of the 16th Amendment, that debate may resurface, but since the only tax ever collected that way was amended and merged into the Internal Revenue Code which the FairTax repeals, it's still moot. If future Congresses want to try to impose an excise tax on corporations calculated on net income, then that's a debate that will have to take place with the courts at that time.

The FairTax does not repeal excise taxes. But, there is no corporate excise tax calculated on income, only the corporate income tax imposed and collected under Chapter 1, Section 11 of the Internal Revenue Code, which is part of Subchapter A that is repealed in Section 101 of the FairTax legislation.

So all income-based taxes are in fact repealed by the FairTax. Are income taxes prohibited or "forbidden"? No, they are repealed, not "forbidden", and the FairTax has never made any claim to the contrary. When the 16th Amendment is repealed, income taxes would once again be unconstitutional. Could future Congresses pass another amendment at some point in the future to re-establish the income tax? We can't control the future, but I doubt it. I think the FairTax is going to be so popular and work so well that no one will ever want to mess with it. But we're a free country and 100 years from now, who knows what the people of the United States may want to do. At that point, this will be their country and they'll be free to do whatever they want to do.

[url="http://www.fairtax.org"]www.fairtax.org[/url]

[quote="Judy"][quote="johnwk"]Judy,

Why do you want to put every American family on the public dole?

H.R.25 proposes:

`SEC. 301. FAMILY CONSUMPTION ALLOWANCE.
`Each qualified family shall be eligible to receive a sales tax rebate each month. The sales tax rebate shall be in an amount equal to the product of--
`(1) the rate of tax imposed by section 101, and
`(2) the monthly poverty level.

`SEC. 302. QUALIFIED FAMILY.
`(a) General Rule- For purposes of this chapter, the term `qualified family' shall mean 1 or more family members sharing a common residence. All family members sharing a common residence shall be considered as part of 1 qualified family.

SEC. 304. REBATE MECHANISM.
`(a) General Rule- The Social Security Administration shall provide a monthly sales tax rebate to duly registered qualified families in an amount determined in accordance with section 301.


The whole idea of the family consumption entitlement creates another captive voting block dependent upon a monthly government check, who will then be manipulated by the Washington Establishment progressives.

How did Obama just get elected? Didn’t he promise to send a check to millions of people, calling it a tax cut? But 40 percent of the 95 percent of the people eligible for his “tax cutâ€

[quote="johnwk"][quote="Judy"][quote="johnwk"]Judy,

Why do you want to put every American family on the public dole?

H.R.25 proposes:

`SEC. 301. FAMILY CONSUMPTION ALLOWANCE.
`Each qualified family shall be eligible to receive a sales tax rebate each month. The sales tax rebate shall be in an amount equal to the product of--
`(1) the rate of tax imposed by section 101, and
`(2) the monthly poverty level.

`SEC. 302. QUALIFIED FAMILY.
`(a) General Rule- For purposes of this chapter, the term `qualified family' shall mean 1 or more family members sharing a common residence. All family members sharing a common residence shall be considered as part of 1 qualified family.

SEC. 304. REBATE MECHANISM.
`(a) General Rule- The Social Security Administration shall provide a monthly sales tax rebate to duly registered qualified families in an amount determined in accordance with section 301.


The whole idea of the family consumption entitlement creates another captive voting block dependent upon a monthly government check, who will then be manipulated by the Washington Establishment progressives.

How did Obama just get elected? Didn’t he promise to send a check to millions of people, calling it a tax cut? But 40 percent of the 95 percent of the people eligible for his “tax cutâ€

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by johnwk

I explained it above, Judy. You simply ignore what is self evident about the monthly family consumption entitlement check. But that's ok Judy, I'm sure you have a very good reason for ignoring what is self evident.


JWK

No you didn't. You depict the Rebate check as an entitlement check when it's a reimbursement check of FairTaxes spent on essentials. It doesn't create voting blocks because all legal voters are entitled to it no different than everyone who claims a personal deduction on their income tax creates a "voting block".

Entitlement Judy. It’s an entitlement. There is no requirement for one to purchase anything or pay taxes on anything to receive the monthly entitlement check. It’s an entitlement Judy. But don’t take my word for it Judy, see what the President’s Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform wrote in crystal clear language:


Conclusion

“Like other consumption taxes, the full replacement retail sales tax has pro-retail growth features. Nevertheless, the Panel does not recommend a full replacement retail sales tax. Without a large cash grant program to ease the burden of the tax, a retail sales tax would not be appropriately progressive. A cash grant program to make the tax appropriately progressive would cost at least $600 billion per year – which would make it America’s largest entitlement program. The Panel concluded that it was inappropriate to recommend a tax reform proposal that required the federal government to collect and redistribute this amount in additional revenue from taxpayers. The Panel also was concerned with administrative and compliance issues associated with a retail sales tax, as well as difficulties involving coordination with existing state sales taxes.â€

Originally Posted by johnwk

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by johnwk

I explained it above, Judy. You simply ignore what is self evident about the monthly family consumption entitlement check. But that's ok Judy, I'm sure you have a very good reason for ignoring what is self evident.


JWK

No you didn't. You depict the Rebate check as an entitlement check when it's a reimbursement check of FairTaxes spent on essentials. It doesn't create voting blocks because all legal voters are entitled to it no different than everyone who claims a personal deduction on their income tax creates a "voting block".

Entitlement Judy. It’s an entitlement. There is no requirement for one to purchase anything or pay taxes on anything to receive the monthly entitlement check. It’s an entitlement Judy. But don’t take my word for it Judy, see what the President’s Advisory Panel on Federal Tax Reform wrote in crystal clear language:


Conclusion

“Like other consumption taxes, the full replacement retail sales tax has pro-retail growth features. Nevertheless, the Panel does not recommend a full replacement retail sales tax. Without a large cash grant program to ease the burden of the tax, a retail sales tax would not be appropriately progressive. A cash grant program to make the tax appropriately progressive would cost at least $600 billion per year – which would make it America’s largest entitlement program. The Panel concluded that it was inappropriate to recommend a tax reform proposal that required the federal government to collect and redistribute this amount in additional revenue from taxpayers. The Panel also was concerned with administrative and compliance issues associated with a retail sales tax, as well as difficulties involving coordination with existing state sales taxes.â€

Judy, Judy, Judy,

You are not telling the whole truth. The family consumption allowance is an entitlement. Those who are already on the public dole would be entitled to the monthly entitlement check. Those who are eligible for the monthly entitlement check do not have to be productive citizens with a job and paying taxes to receive the monthly entitlement check, and, therefore, the alleged fair tax would create America’s largest entitlement program and would cost at least $600 billion per year!

What I support, unlike your progressive, big government taxing idea, is a return to our Constitution’s original tax plan which created the economic environment and political circumstances for America to become the economic marvel of the world! And, we could return to our Constitution’s original tax plan by adding 32 words to our Constitution which would encourage Congress to practice sound economic policies, extinguish deficits in a timely manner, and make Congress immediately accountable for reckless spending and borrowing with its apportioned tax to extinguish deficits in a timely manner. It only takes 32 words to accomplish all this, without another entitlement program, and without the 134 pages of legal nonsense as contained in your H.R. 25, the alleged fair tax. The 32 words are:

The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay ``any`` tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money

For an outline of our Constitution’s original tax plan CLICK HERE


JWK


[b][i]“…a national revenue must be obtained; but the system must be such a one, that, while it secures the object of revenue it shall not be oppressive to our constituents.â€