Thread: Against Illegals but here is a suggestion

Please seperate illegal immigration issue from good business practices
and concentrate more on the COST and the SECURITY risks of illegals.

I boycott companies that hire illegals not because the illegals take
American jobs because the illegals cost tax money that should of
benefit Americans. In addition, there is security risks.

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In general, I am

Against:
Illegal Immigration
Non-citizens/residents taking away benefits from Americans tax money
Non-citizens/residents as security risk

Support:
Cheap Labor
International Commerce
Legal Immigration

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My decision on this issue:

Because I believe the Cost of Illegals on our society in addition
to the security risk is higher than the benefit of the cheap
labor, therefore, I am against illegal immigration.

Boycotting businesses as a mean to support anti-illegal immigration
is the only power we have since we can't count on the Federal/State
government.

========================
So what I did:

Searched on the net for info on companies that support illegals
and found this forum.

I was just about to join you guys until
I read messages such as:
Cheaper Wages
American jobs being taken away
Buy American

I am not saying that we shouldn't encourage buying Americans but
What does any of these have anything to do w/ stopping Illegal Immigration?
Should we be stopping illegal immigration
because they are willing to work for less or
because they cost us more than they benefit us?

I support you guys on stopping illegal immigration not because of cheaper wages but because the cheaper wages came w/ a cost that is even more than the savings on the wages.

As an American, I welcome any competition because competition makes us better and more innovative.
Any MEANS TO DETER competition is FUTILE & will only decrease our motivation, profit, eventually innovation.
Innovation + Cheap Labor = Good Business
The fact is that 99% of the letters typed on this forum were typed on keyboards outside of USA.

I will bookmark this forum to keep track of companies to boycott.
Suggestion: Someone should keep a total list of all the companies and posted it on the forum every once in a while.

I appreciate what everyone is doing on this forum but like to suggest leaving the arguements such as "taking away American jobs" out of the equation.

Corrections:
The fact is that 99% of the letters typed on this forum were typed on keyboards made outside of USA.

Hey shakes.

Read the rules.

The posts by non officer users of the ALIPAC boards to not speak for the organization.

If you are going to decide to join us or not based on the posts here you are shortchanging our organization and basing your decision on about anything that emerges out of the Internet.

But it is true that illegal aliens take American jobs and it is a clear and irrefutable fact that illegal aliens have depressed American wages by the billions.

William Gheen
President, ALIPAC

I appreciate what everyone is doing on this forum but like to suggest leaving the arguements such as "taking away American jobs" out of the equation

Why ?

All of us vote our interests, and your interests seem no less self-interests than ours do.

The bottom line is not that people do not see their jobs in jeopardy, but that they do not see their jobs ENOUGH in jeopardy.

If they did, more would understand the problem and more would join or become active.

The idea of the oversupply of labor is a legitimate concern.

Until the 1980s, the main competition was human competition.

Since the desktop computer, the main competition actually is the Computer against Humans, and the computers are easily winning.

What this means is that more and more people who want to raise their standard of living, are fighting for fewer and fewer jobs, because there are less and less jobs for humans.

That is not difficult to prove. As the sophistication of the computer increases, so does their ability to handle complex tasks and hence to replace humans in decision making environments.

The trend for computers is already so fast, and their capacity is at least Doubled every 13 to 18 months.

That means that not only is the trend against Jobs by humans GROWING, but the percentage of jobs that Humans can be excluded from is now growing also.


On the other end of the spectrum, population from Free nations also now compete against populations of slave nations.

THe Effect is that this drives wages down to the lowest bid.

Only in Non-free or slave societies, the lowest bid is usually the most COERCED bid.

So people who were free are competing with those who are compelled to work, not because the market forces them to do this, but because the state forces those slaves to work.


So it is not a FREE Market in any sense of the word, and thanks to the WTO, it is a less free market for growing groups of people every month.

The only ones who have any real say in the WTO are usually corporations,and those on the various WTO boards have strong ties either to banks or to multinational corporations.

These systems of Pitting slave workers against Free workers, and the WTO against classes of workers in various nations against each other, has the effect of accelerating a wealth transfer from the formerly Middle Classes to those at the top.

Only those who have the largest amount of pools of capital can exercise the influence needed to change the game.

The result is that rights are vanishing fast, and those at the top are accumulating the wealth which formerly belonged to the middle class.

It is not that those at the top played fair, but rather that they bribed, blackmailed, and used extra legal means in order to maintain their power which they are currently using AGAINST the middle class.

The Immigration Bills are a great example.

The american people have spoken their wishes.

But politicians respond to re elections, and those at the top control the millions and millions of dollars it takes to be elected.

John Danforth came from Ralston Purina Dynasty.
Rockefeller comes from the 7 sister oil companies
Gore was the son of a Senator, and his daughter married into an enormously wealthy banking family
Both Bushes were the sons of Senators (and also had wealth)
John Mc Cain has more than 250 Million dollars with ties to liquor interests
John Kerry has Heinz money, but comes from older money still and grew up the son of multi millionaires.
Bill Frist's family owns the largest HMO on the planet

Those are a few examples of the sons of the top classes using the law not to help the people, but to confuse them, to oppress them, and to use the law for PRIVATE interests.

Cheap labor is NOT good.

Cheap Labor is NOT moral, when the source of the competition emanates from Coerced and Slave Labor classes, such as those in:

Pakistan, China, Vietnam, North Korea, India in many cases, and other places where sweatshop labor is the order of the day.

INternational Commerce does Not enhance the wealth of the nation when it is prevented from being invested in American projects.

This was largely done through the Tax code, that gave huge tax breaks to companies that would dismantle their American factories and plants, and move them to China.

There was international commerce, but the results of the original cycles were then used to finance the rise of the Chinese Oligarchy, which is built on the Military Industrial Complex of China, and they Do show economic expansionist intentions, something which they have been up front about.

While International commerce is nice in theory, in the U.S. it does not reach much the average American.

And that is how the Economy can continue to grow, but wages in fact will continue to drop, AND the economic growth of the Large corporations is detached from the welfare of the individual in this nation.

And most of those corporations are not neutral to the Average American.

They are harmful to the average American.

They work to undercut both his wages and the industrial and environmental laws that safegard the nation. And this is not a reference to OSHA or extreme policies, but simply the standard issues such as not dumping toxic chemicals in rivers.

So if you want to support Cheap labor, that is your right, but that really means you are willing to tolerate un-natural and unfair competition by people who are working by force and threats in foreign lands, and the results of accepting their labor is the destabilization of the Wage Base in Free societies.

As you know, the long term effects are the reduced purchasing power of the middle class as consumers, since they no longer have the funds to consume.

That is what is happening here, and that is why more and more goods are not only cheaper, but more cheaply made. To sustain the quality which existed in the old days is not possible, economically because the middle class does not have the sufficient wealth to maintain that same standard.

Bush tries to compensate by stretching exports and weakening the dollar to sustain the illusion. but how long can that go on ?

The Dollar has been so weakened during his presidency, that by the time people find out just what that foreign Slave competition has done to them, they will scream for relief at being forced and deceived into tolerating the artificial competition brought about through trade with communist nations.

And if those nations were free, there is no way that they would sell the same products for those same prices, since the people would be able to strike and demand real wages. THAT would have the effect of raising their own wages, which would serve as a natural competition to the wage base in Free nations. But that was never allowed to happen.

These things have very real consequences and they are all bad for Americans.

Closing the Border will not fix those issues, but it may slow the impending crisis to some kind of manageable level.

shakes, in NC, illegals are taking so many jobs from low income blacks and whites, retired seniors, part-time workers, and students that this is anything but a non-issue. Also lawbreaking employers knowing nothing will happen to them if they hire illegals, turn away all these other groups by telling them there are no openings or telling them that fluency in Spanish is required for employment which is just another dishonest ploy to discourage legal workers from applying for jobs because it is more expensive to hire legal workers and obey the law than it is to cheat and break immigration and labor laws. There are huge numbers of Americans living in economically depressed areas of the US where outsourcing and industrial relocation has left residents with very limited job opportunties and the last thing these desperate people need is to have to compete with illegal aliens for whatever meager jobs are left.

I understand what all you guys are saying.

But here are the facts of life:

1. American or just plain being a human being, life is a constant struggle and competition is what made us better. Americans represented the peak of mankind because it is a new country that just went thru struggle.
2. Capitalism is a Equal Opportunity system but not a Equal Outcome system; however, it is a cruel system. There is no stopping where the rich get richer and the poor gets poorer. The more money that you have, the easier to earn even more. It is almost no different than math or programming. A new math equation opens the door to other equations. An advance programmer is 100 times more efficient than an average programmer because if you write smart codes, the codes could be used and increases efficiency.
3. Computer, technology, internet enable competition globally.
4. America has to continue to trade on international level to be competitive. It is economic suicide to push for isolation.
5. Technology enables Economy, Economy enables Technology, Economy and Technology enables Military Power, Economy enables better lifestyle.

========================================

If you believe the above is true then, please ask:

1. How do we compete globally?
2. Why would employers in the long run stay in US if labor costs are higher?
3. How come true Americans who have better lifestyle than the Mexican illegals have to fight for the same jobs? Why are they not looking for improving themselves such that instead of competing w/ the illegals, they should be hiring legals?

My hope for all Americans to see is that:
Don't compete for cheap labor jobs because you can't. Any means to DETER wage competition is just added incentives for companies to leave and for internationl businesses to not want to be here. If American products are more expensive, they either will be priced out or they will just move somewhere else to cut cost. In that case, not a single American benefit in the long run.

So you welcome competition or take advantage of it. If you already have more money than the illegals, thru smarter business practices, thru innovations, thru self improvement, I can't see why the Americans have to worry. Isn't it more ideal to have most Americans to be business owners w/ low wage workers to compete globally?

Americans WILL be competing w/ lower wages globally; in fact, we already do.

Now I sound like a illegal immigrant supporter and I am not.
I support Americans to take any BUSINESS advantages.
I do not support American TAX MONEY going to the illegals.
The way I see it, there are more burden to ALL Americans than BUSINESS advantages @ this point, so it is not ECONOMICAL for US to have illegals. Therefore, I do not support illegals and will boycott any companies that hire them because it is the only power I have.

Thanks for the long reply, I can't comment on all but here are my thoughts on the last few.


While International commerce is nice in theory, in the U.S. it does not reach much the average American.

>>> Why not, why shouldn't we push most Americans to be business owners around the world to hire cheap labors. Average Americans already have more money to invest than a Chinese or Indian.

So if you want to support Cheap labor, that is your right, but that really means you are willing to tolerate un-natural and unfair competition by people who are working by force and threats in foreign lands, and the results of accepting their labor is the destabilization of the Wage Base in Free societies.

>>> Either they were forced or not, Americans will be forced to compete w/ that wage directly or indirectly. I guess it is completely pointless for me support it or not because Americans already face Cheap labors globally.

Closing the Border will not fix those issues, but it may slow the impending crisis to some kind of manageable level.[/quote]

>>> I agree that it won't solve the problem.
I disagree that it may slow the impending crisis to some kind of manageable level. If the illegals are not a burden, it will actually stimulate the crisis.

If large US companies can't compete on global level, small companies won't survive quickly. There will be no level to manage on. Electronics are perfect examples. I can't find a single flat panel made these day that was made in US. So, who will supply the US military LCD screens for their fighter planes 5 years from now? China? Korea? Economy-Technology-Military go hand to hand. The US government tried to support flat panel makers based in US for the same reason, the companies simply can't survive. I would have much rather to keep the technology and companies here, hire the Korean for manufacturing, hire the Mexican to package and ship, price out the Chinese on price and quality. At least all of the essential scientists, managers are still paying US taxes. In the ideal world, I would be talking w/ another US company who hire the Korean and the Mexican for me.
Instead, because companies can't hire cheap labors, there are no flat panel makers in US. So whenever the Chinese/Korean flat panel makers decide to stop the supply, the price go up US and all businesses in US suffer. In addition, the Chinese government could just completely cut off the supply so our US war planes don't have screens?

It seems to me, the only solution is to be more creative, educated, and actually take advantage of the cheap labor.

shakes,

Don't compete for cheap labor jobs because you can't.

One thing is glaringly obvious to me. You are not nor ever have been a LABORER. My guess is you sit in a nice air-conditioned office with your feet on a desk. You should get out into the REAL WORLD where Americans are sweating their buns off to make ends meet.

You must realize that not ALL Americans have the luxury of changing their manner of earnings. Some of us have been doing skilled trades ALL OUR LIVES, and have watched as our standard and means of living have PLUMMETED due to illegal labor.

I'm sorry to say this but I have a nice, long list of unflattering words that I would apply to you, if I didn't have the respect for this forum I do . You sound like a shill for the CFR, an elitist snob who's never broken a sweat or worked an honest day in your life. And that's just the NICE things I can say about you.

I agree with Pinestrawguys, this "shakes" person has never had to do any back breaking work like most of us have. My job was considered "skilled labor" and I made a pretty good living doing that job even though my body suffered alot of pains and strains. I CHOSE the job I did for 23 years of my life! That's proof that Americans do like hard work, just like Pinestrawguys does. The illegals argue that without them, who would build our houses, who would cook and serve our food, etc., etc.? I have news for them....WE, the American people have and continue to do that for ourselves and have done so since we became a country! My brothers CHOSE to be brick and block masons, my husband CHOSE to be a carpenter, but thanks to the illegals breaking our law and coming in by the millions, those jobs no longer pay a living wage for Americans and the only ones profiting from the illegals are the big companies who hire them. We, the tax payers, are paying for the healthcare and welfare of these cheap, illegal workers and we are paying BIG TIME in wage depression and job loss. Only the rich, elite, white collar class sees illegal immigration as a good thing. I love to see a man who gets out there and works hard with his back and his hands to earn a living. That's a real man for ya! And that type of man loves those hard jobs they are doing. It's sad to see these guys losing their jobs because some big company wants to pay slave wages to illegals and what's even sadder is to see an American family lose everything because of that company's greed!

With respect, I say Shakes sounds like dozens of products of Economics 101 that says, "labor (read that people) are just another commodity'.

That is a frightening concept to me.

Now I can't make those educated posts that others before me have done so well, but rather as a plain old granny lady that remembers how some things used to be and remembers the things she was taught about how things out to be.

When you say that capitalism is just free enterprise - in theory, I suppose.
In practice, it is far different. When capitalism purchases lawmakers, as they have here, to pass laws or refuse to enforce laws that gives them all manner of tax breaks, subsidies, and look-the-other-way to breaking the law - then that isn't 'free enterprise'. That isn't 'fair enterprise'.

When captalism greases the palm of foreign rulers to allow them to put their sweatshops in their countries and make their people work for pittance - that isn't 'free enterprise'. That's just slavery bundled up in high-faluting ten dollar words. Remember that much of this 'greasing of palms' money is actually taxpayer dollars, the government euphemistically calls 'foreign aid' - which seldom makes it farther than the coffers of the despotic rulers.

As for the illegals competing - you, youself say they cost more than they contribute. So just who is bearing those costs? Certainly not the employer. Their bottom lines are obscene. Their CEO' s are being paid ridiculous amounts. They are gobbling up competition and world resources at an alarming rate. So employers are not bearing those costs.

The American taxpayers are bearing the costs to subsidize labor for these corporations. If not for the welfare given to the illegals - courtesy of American working families - they would not/ could not come here to live off the wages many of them make.

Also, the illegals, by and large, pay no taxes. The employer gets away with not collecting or matching taxes, no worker's comp, no responsibility at all. If one gets harmed or killed through employer negligence or indifference - they are cared for, medically, by the American taxpayers or their remains shipped home. And the employer goes along with business as usual.

I submit if you told an American worker - or out of work American -
I will pay you only pay you $8 to $10 an hour -

but

You won't have to pay any payroll taxes

You won't have to pay any healthcare costs - you or your family gets hurt or gets a cold - totally free medical care.

You won't have to carry auto insurance - just don't worry about it.

Your children will get free lunches, breakfasts, and school supplies. WE will even feed them during the summer months - i

You get free food through a card and through WIC - baby formula, etc.

You can get an apartment that is subsidized - or we will help you purchase a home - subsidized by other workers - It's yours - the payments are miniscule

If you get caught breaking a traffic law - no p roblem, just forget it. In fact unless you do something really egregious and others see you, forget about any laws.

You don't have to obey any zoning laws or health laws. If you want to butcher animals in your back yard and sell the meat - no problem - that's free enterprise. If you want to start a shade tree mechanics shop in your back yard of that nice home in a nice community we bought you - that's fine.

If you have problems paying your utilities - no problem - we'll help you out.

If your kids need clothing, etc., we have lots of organizations that will get clothing for you - and the churches just love to bring you clothing, furniture, toys, etc. Christmas will be no problem for you.

So, do you think you would have any takers? I know plenty of Americans who would work under those conditions. But that's not the deal offered to Americans - it is reserved for illegals.