Thread: Alert! Stop passage of Specter's new amnesty-lite bill!

Originally Posted by tinybobidaho

Well, Mongo, we here at ALIPAC don't just jam phone lines and make noise. We make sense. We let our politicians know that we are not going to sit back and let them give our country away to a bunch of free-loading, flag-waving foreigners who don't give a rat's behind about our culture or the future of a beautiful country.

You're in the wrong forum to produce your types of arguments.

Love it tiny. We do make sense. The other argument is all emotion. POOR ME, I DESERVE, YOU'RE NOT NICE TO ME. BLAH BLAH BLAH. But hey, lets have your laws, that I broke, protect me. LOL That's called incongruent thinking.

Originally Posted by Mongo

I still think Senator Specter's suggestion is both good for the country and the humane thing to do.

You clearly think his suggestion is FIRST and FOREMOST "good for Mongo the Illegal Immigrant", and the "country" and "humanity" come in a distant 2nd and 3rd. You're not fooling anyone but yourself, Mongo. Let's continue, shall we?

Any group more or less numerous of driven individuals can jam lines and make noise.

Like LaRaza? Yeah, we've seen what "driven individuals" can do. That's exactly why alipac exists, Mongo...a group of driven ACTIVISTS and LEGAL U.S. CITIZENS who will do what it takes to protect OUR interests FIRST. That "noise" you dismiss so readily is the reason you're STILL a criminal, Mongo. Surely that couldn't be the reason for your objection?

Give politicians some credit: I would assume a U.S, senator can differentiate between "a group of driven individuals" and a grassroots upheaval.

And they did recognze the difference, which is why YOU'RE still a criminal, and our laws are still in tact. What part of that escaped your criminal sensibilities, Mongo?

By the way, can anyone produce arguments against his suggestion, or propose something different in order to address the problem?

Still waiting...

Absolutely! Who am I to keep MONGO the Illegal waiting? Well, Mongo, seeing as how you're not very good at waiting, let me indulge your self-importance and sense of urgency, Mongo.

How about these, Mongo? Any response to these, criminal?

- What gives YOU the right to jump in line AHEAD of all those, from Mexico and every country in the world...who are WAITING IN LINE PATIENTLY WITH millions of other hopeful immigrants to fill the 1,000,000 yearly visas...LEGALLY. What gives YOU the right to cut in line? How is it humane to keep out someone who WANTS to be an American, first and foremost, who is trying desperately to come here from Sudan? Why do YOU get to cut in line? Why do YOU get a get out of jail free card? You DON'T, Mongo. There is NOTHING "humane" about giving YOU a break while the family in Sudan has to wait longer, doing it legally.

- A criminal is a criminal. You, Mongo, as a criminal in the U.S., have NO rights here, civil or otherwise. We have laws in place to deal with criminals like you who have a misguided sense of self-entitlement. You're not a citizen, AND you're breaking our laws. How about prison, Mongo? How about deportation? We already have laws to deal with scumbag illegals like you.

- Something different to address "the problem"? Sure!! We enforce our current laws! We jail and fine ANY business owner who hires a criminal illegal immigrant, and we charge and deport ANY criminal illegal immigrant. Easy. That's all we want, Mongo. YOU and YOUR self-entitled criminal pals to be sent back to YOUR homeland to live YOUR dream. Get in line.

Mongo Aurelio - Criminal and Illegal Immigrant to the U.S.
www.itsnofun.com

Now, let's have some fun with that dirty diaper you call a blog, criminal, shall we? We shall. The following from YOUR crappy site, Mongo (or should I call you by your real name, Ramiro Diaz?)

Criminal Mongo begs to plead his case by stating:

8 reasons why I think I deserve amnesty

1. I am living, working and doing pretty much what I want inside the US, with the exception of leaving the country to visit my family.

Unless Americans create some kind of nationally issued ID card, thing they seem extraordinarily averse to doing, I can keep doing exactly what I am doing indefinitely.

That you haven't yet been caught, or deported, doesn't translate logically to "deserving amnesty". When this or any other administration finally gets off it's collective asses and enforces our laws, you'll be caught, jailed, and deported. Using your tortured logic, a mass murderer should be allowed to continue murdering, as he/she is "already doing what they want anyhow". Idiocy in it's simplest form, Mongo.

2. I have lived in the US for 8 years, and have roots in the community.
I never got as much as a parking ticket from the police. I do community work and keep a low profile. As the overwhelming majority of undocumented workers, my hard work and work ethics made the beloved of my company, my superiors and coworkers, my neighbors, etc.

The only thing holding me back from further involvement with my community is the Damocles sword of having to one day pack my things and leave.

You've been a criminal and fugitive from justice for 8 years. That you're good at evading arrest is a reason you SHOULD be rounded up and deported. That you keep a low profile is only a testament to your criminality, and apparently the ONLY reason you keep a low profile is so that you're not caught for the crimes you've already committed. Get back in line, Mongo, you're not needed here, criminal. Your "beloved co-workers" will be in jail, and the "superiors" will be in jail. It WILL happen, Mongo. Not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. Keep that low profile, criminal....

3. I pay a lot of taxes.
Last year I paid 30,000 of income tax alone. As everybody else, including undocumented people, I pay Federal and State VAT. As the majority of undocumented immigrants, I contribute so Social Security but never asked or received SS assistance. It is fair to assume that my work and taxes are supporting the welfare of up to 3 Americans.

I never as much as stepped into a public hospital, for fear of being asked about my citizenship status as a condition to receiving attention, as law mandates.

And then I have to listen to the likes of Lou Dobbs saying that undocumented workers are a net drain to taxpayers …

You're paying taxes using WHO'S Social Security credentials, criminal? The ONLY reason you pay taxes is because you don't have a choice, criminal. Believe it, if you could get away with NOT paying taxes, you wouldn't. You're a criminal who cares nothing about the community or those he steals from, only his immediate welfare. That you continue to NOT get regular health care, first to evade detection as a criminal, is yet another reason you, criminal, should be deported immediately. You're a fugitive from justice, from the laws of OUR country, and clearly don't care about anything but yourself.

It's only fair to assume that the taxes you're being FORCED to pay by your criminal employer are being sucked right back OUT of the system by the 12,000,000 OTHER criminal illegal immigrants (you know, Mongo, that "community" you're so fond of) who have no right to public services here in the U.S. and have broken MORE laws to position themselves for theft of those services via identity theft.

Also, Mongo the Illegal, get it straight...you're an illegal immigrant. "undocumented worker" just sounds so....legal. Let's stick to real definitions, ok criminal? Let's continue...

4. I speak English better than most Americans
I frankly don’t understand why this seems to be an issue for a large number of Americans, but in any case, I have a command of this language superior to the average Bubba.

And my daughter even has that unbearable, nasal California twang, which I am working on correcting.

While I'm SURE the rest of the illegal criminal scumbags you cavort with find your excuse for humor "hilarious", speaking English is a requirement to interact with our society, and an expectation from an immigrant. Your learning English is required, not something to be praised, and it certainly gives you NO right to break our laws. You think becuase you speak English that it gives you a right to be here illegally?! Your criminal ass should be given CITIZENSHIP? Laughable. Next...

[quote]5. Current law doesn’t give me any avenue to regularize my situation
Once you become “out of statusâ€

I will try to leave out insults, etc and try to rescue parts where the author (HarmFamily) actually manages to produce some argument.
It is kind of difficult, since they are so intertwined...

You clearly think his suggestion is FIRST and FOREMOST "good for Mongo the Illegal Immigrant", and the "country" and "humanity" come in a distant 2nd and 3rd.

No argument there. I do this for self interest first.

Like LaRaza? Yeah, we've seen what "driven individuals" can do. That's exactly why alipac exists, Mongo...a group of driven ACTIVISTS and LEGAL U.S. CITIZENS who will do what it takes to protect OUR interests FIRST. That "noise" you dismiss so readily is the reason you're STILL a criminal, Mongo. Surely that couldn't be the reason for your objection?

Probably. I reckon you are overestimating the pressure power of both "La Raza" and yourself.

And they did recognze the difference, which is why YOU'RE still a criminal, and our laws are still in tact. What part of that escaped your criminal sensibilities, Mongo?

Good. So we both want legislators to recognize the difference between grassroot concern and bilious noise. I am so glad that we agree on something!

Something different to address "the problem"? Sure!! We enforce our current laws! We jail and fine ANY business owner who hires a criminal illegal immigrant, and we charge and deport ANY criminal illegal immigrant. Easy. That's all we want, Mongo. YOU and YOUR self-entitled criminal pals to be sent back to YOUR homeland to live YOUR dream. Get in line.

Well, that is a proposal alright.
Simplistic and impracticable, but still a proposal. See? You are learning!

That you haven't yet been caught, or deported, doesn't translate logically to "deserving amnesty".

Correct, and I never suggested that implication.

Using your tortured logic, a mass murderer should be allowed to continue murdering, as he/she is "already doing what they want anyhow". Idiocy in it's simplest form, Mongo.

That is not my logic, it is your weird, easily rebuttable extrapolation.
Putting undocumented presence in this country at the same level as mass murder doesn't even deserve an answer.

You've been a criminal and fugitive from justice for 8 years. That you're good at evading arrest is a reason you SHOULD be rounded up and deported. That you keep a low profile is only a testament to your criminality, and apparently the ONLY reason you keep a low profile is so that you're not caught for the crimes you've already committed.

Crimes I already committed?
Fugitive from justice?
Criminal?
I am just a distinguished foreigner with an immigration status problem.

You're paying taxes using WHO'S Social Security credentials, criminal?
...
and have broken MORE laws to position themselves for theft of those services via identity theft.

I, as most undocumented foreigners in this country, never committed identity theft. Why would we?

While I'm SURE the rest of the illegal criminal scumbags you cavort with find your excuse for humor "hilarious", speaking English is a requirement to interact with our society, and an expectation from an immigrant. Your learning English is required, not something to be praised, and it certainly gives you NO right to break our laws. You think becuase you speak English that it gives you a right to be here illegally?! Your criminal ass should be given CITIZENSHIP? Laughable. Next...

I don't think that mastery of English is sufficient to achieve US citizenship. That is ridiculous, and it is is a very contorted interpretation of what I am saying.
I just posted it as a "reason" because lack of English is a common hate excuse wielded by anti-immigrant people.

The following quote is about the lack of avenues to regularize the undocumented people's (and mine) situation.

Yep, that's right, and INTENTIONAL. Yes, pack your f'ing bags and leave, criminal. You have NO right to be here. Get the f out, get BACK in line, and do it LEGALLY like EVERY OTHER HOPEFUL IMMIGRANT. You have NO rights. Yes, you DO "mischievously cut corners" (i.e. commit crimes) to stay here. Current law says you're not supposed to be here in the FIRST place, but you already knew that. More of that LaRaza-style self-entitlement you "awesome" criminals ooze like so much pond scum.

Let's leave out that "la Raza" obsession of your for a moment.
Yes, I am unlawfully here and I seek ways to regularize my situation.
Been seeking them for 8 years.
Sorry it doesn't measure up to your high standards.

And unfortunately, I could not find anything else of value on HarmFamily reply, just more of the "you broke the law/deserve nothing" mantra.

Keep your opinions coming, HarmFamily. You manage to produce some valuable ideas among all the bile.
For what is worth, I regret what you preceive H1-B's are doing to you.
Love

Mongo

I too am in the IT industry! And let me tell you that you really piss me off too. I have been doing something in the computer industry since 1972, so I have seen all the crap that cheap labor has done over the years.

You said that current native programmers wouldn’t get double of triple pay if you leave, well that is most likely correct, but then, if it wasn’t for you being here the native programmers would not have to accept jobs below their pay scale, just to be employed. Just to feed their families. (As you illegals like to use to make us feel bad).

I have seen whole program engineering departments phased out to get cheaper foreign workers. I have seen whole support departments phased out and sent to India. (Anyone who has called for computer support knows that hell.) And most of the time that so-called support person has no clue what is wrong. I worked for a big US company that had over 57,000 employees worldwide that phase out its entire programming staff, which is now done in India. (That was before I was phased out too)

What makes this so bad is that after business shipped overseas the level 2 to level 4 jobs, they now want illegals to come in and take what is left, and at under scale putting more native Americans out of work. Some of those level 2 to 4 people cannot even get a level 1 job because they are being filled with illegals willing to be paid under scale. They felt that had to apply for those lesser jobs because that’s all that was left, and they still get screwed.

Then there is the loss of pride. The pride that once was the American worker that was proudly employed by an employer that once cared about America, even over the all mighty dollar. Most employers in the past were grateful to the country that gave them a change to become rich. But sadly – NOT ANYMORE! It’s now screw everyone they can and the easy ones twice.

I also don’t expect you to understand way pride is such a motivator to Americans. Why we would stay and do anything we can to fix the land we love. If you did understand the meaning of pride then you won’t be here now, would you be? So I guess you cannot mix pride with selfishness can you? Actually I find it hard to believe you give a crap about anything other the American dollar. (Our Dollar!)

By the way “We spend 100% of our money in the US, not just 85%â€

[quote="MadInChicago"]I too am in the IT industry! And let me tell you that you really piss me off too. I have been doing something in the computer industry since 1972, so I have seen all the crap that cheap labor has done over the years.

You said that current native programmers wouldn’t get double of triple pay if you leave, well that is most likely correct, but then, if it wasn’t for you being here the native programmers would not have to accept jobs below their pay scale, just to be employed. Just to feed their families. (As you illegals like to use to make us feel bad).

I have seen whole program engineering departments phased out to get cheaper foreign workers. I have seen whole support departments phased out and sent to India. (Anyone who has called for computer support knows that hell.) And most of the time that so-called support person has no clue what is wrong. I worked for a big US company that had over 57,000 employees worldwide that phase out its entire programming staff, which is now done in India. (That was before I was phased out too)

What makes this so bad is that after business shipped overseas the level 2 to level 4 jobs, they now want illegals to come in and take what is left, and at under scale putting more native Americans out of work. Some of those level 2 to 4 people cannot even get a level 1 job because they are being filled with illegals willing to be paid under scale. They felt that had to apply for those lesser jobs because that’s all that was left, and they still get screwed.

Then there is the loss of pride. The pride that once was the American worker that was proudly employed by an employer that once cared about America, even over the all mighty dollar. Most employers in the past were grateful to the country that gave them a change to become rich. But sadly – NOT ANYMORE! It’s now screw everyone they can and the easy ones twice.

I also don’t expect you to understand way pride is such a motivator to Americans. Why we would stay and do anything we can to fix the land we love. If you did understand the meaning of pride then you won’t be here now, would you be? So I guess you cannot mix pride with selfishness can you? Actually I find it hard to believe you give a crap about anything other the American dollar. (Our Dollar!)

By the way “We spend 100% of our money in the US, not just 85%â€

Mongo, here are some of our concerns, maybe you can answer a few questions for us and tell us why we should allow illegals to stay here in our country.

Is it our responsiblity to provide an education for children other than our own through the use of OUR tax dollars?

Should we be concerned that our Schools we built with our tax dallors are educating children from another country at the expense of the quality of OUR childrens education due to, way over crowding of their class rooms or the result of said children not being able to speak the same language as our children?

Is it the responsibilty of the person from the other country to learn to speak the language of the land they are in?

Is it the American taxpayers responsiblily to pay for their above education.

Is it the responsibiltiy of the American people to pay for health and delivery of said persons children being born, to the extent that in Calif. alone more than 80 hopitals have closed due to this problem?

Is it ok that they come into are neighborhoods live 15 or so people to one house hold, turn their front lawns into parking lots, and decrease the property values of the homes we worked hard to buy?

Alot of these people can not read or write, have never been to school, yet they come here, have an anchor baby then that baby can get welfare another huge cost to American taxpayer, then give them citizenship and the parents and the other children they already have are qualified for Welfare Medicaid, all at the cost of the American taxpayer? is this fair?

Now they want in-state- tuition ( the Dream Act) Is it fair the American taxpayer to be forced to pay for their education when we are stuggling to send our own children to college?

Is it fair to the citizens of this country to have their wages driven down and benefits taken away because of the flood of cheaper labor on the Job market?

Is it fair for us to lose everything we have to accomodate all the 3rd world countrys below our southern border?

Whats going to happen to the 3rd world country's all over the world when the middle class in this country can not give aid to all the these countries anymore to help feed their poor, because we have no jobs or money left ?

Should we stop all the billions of dollars of aid to Mexico since we are being forced to feed and educate them right here in our country or is it our obligation to do both??

I have many more examples but if you could answer these few maybe you could enlighten us as to why these people feel we owe this to them and why they think they are entitled ot our tax money, this money does not grow on trees it comes out of our pocket. Please help me out here!!

He is extremely egotistical. His web site, he states a few things that would make one think he doesn't even like Americans.....he's only here to suck up $$$....with no actual loyalty to this Country.

Ask them a logical question and they will run every time!!!

My answers below.

Is it our responsiblity to provide an education for children other than our own through the use of OUR tax dollars?

No, it is not.

Should we be concerned that our Schools we built with our tax dallors are educating children from another country at the expense of the quality of OUR childrens education due to, way over crowding of their class rooms or the result of said children not being able to speak the same language as our children?

As your country willingly accepts tax dollars from the undocumented people as well, I don't see why not. If the undocumented were totally unproductive members of society that didn't pay any taxes, I could agree with you a little more on that, but, as a country (state, county) you cannot have the cake and eat it. You cannot perceive SS, sales and income tax from them and then pretend not to educate their children.

Is it the responsibilty of the person from the other country to learn to speak the language of the land they are in?

It is, at a minimum, common sense and good manners.

Is it the American taxpayers responsiblily to pay for their above education.

The law says it is, unless until high school. If you have in mind a fairer system, I am all ears.

Is it the responsibiltiy of the American people to pay for health and delivery of said persons children being born, to the extent that in Calif. alone more than 80 hopitals have closed due to this problem?

You are asking several things at the same time here, so let me answer thoroughly.
1) Is it permissible to abuse the health system?
In general, it is clear that most Americans are struggling to find good health care even for themselves. I would assume that it is unfair for the system to take abuse by anyone, undocumented or not.
2) Is it the obligation of a hospital to provide emergency care to anyone regardless of status? Does a woman in labor qualify as emergency?
Yes and yes.
3) Are hospital providing for "health" in general of the undocumented population?
Common sense indicates not. Undocumented people tend to avoid hospitals, except for emergency situations, precisely because their status might come into question.
4) Is it honest or fair to the taxpayers to simply show up at the doors of a hospital being undocumented and expect free care?
No. So what do you do, let her give birth on the street?

Could you send me some verifying information about the 80 hospitals to mongo@(Dot)itsnofun(Dot)com?

Is it ok that they come into are neighborhoods live 15 or so people to one house hold, turn their front lawns into parking lots, and decrease the property values of the homes we worked hard to buy?

I accept that counties and neighborhoods have a certain right to regulate occupancy and the general aspect of households, for matters of public health as long as that doesn't interfere with private property and privacy.
I can't care less about the inflated real state market, or the perceived influence of "them" (who?) on house prices.

Alot of these people can not read or write, have never been to school, yet they come here, have an anchor baby then that baby can get welfare another huge cost to American taxpayer, then give them citizenship and the parents and the other children they already have are qualified for Welfare Medicaid, all at the cost of the American taxpayer? is this fair?

Answering to all:
1) Yes, I would assume that a portion of undocumented immigrants are illiterate.
2) The "anchor baby" issue is something you will have to deal with, unless the Constitution is amended or reinterpreted. Abolishing citizenship by birthplace might seem an attractive slogan for some extremely restrictionist elements, but consider for a moment what the alternative is. Citizenship by "blood"? Carrying papers to demonstrate your lineage or caste? Free advice: drop the subject. It is odious even for most of the right.
3) Unless you resolve point 2) in some fashion different than current law, those children are American citizens and therefore entitled to those programs. I don't hear you complaining about the 9 billion dollars contributed yearly by undocumented immigrants to Medicaid, Medicare and SS using fake social security numbers, and therefore unable to use any of those services.

Now they want in-state- tuition ( the Dream Act) Is it fair the American taxpayer to be forced to pay for their education when we are stuggling to send our own children to college?

We agree here. I am not a big fan of the project myself.

Is it fair to the citizens of this country to have their wages driven down and benefits taken away because of the flood of cheaper labor on the Job market?

The net effect on the job market and wages, with negligible unemployment as there is currently in the US, is positive. Don't forget that undocumented people also generate a lot of employment.
A common complaint is that low-skilled American workers (croppers, bricklayers) have been put out of the market by the influx of foreign labor.
The reverse argument can also be made: Those industries, lacking the (arguably) cheap labor, would have been priced out by competition, and would not have been able to hire that much at higher wages.
The concept that a native landscaper will start earning 30 dollars an hour it all undocumented workers disappeared, doesn't resist much analysis.

Is it fair for us to lose everything we have to accomodate all the 3rd world countrys below our southern border?

No (if that ever happened). For the moment, you are benefiting enormously from the work and energy of the undocumented population.

Whats going to happen to the 3rd world country's all over the world when the middle class in this country can not give aid to all the these countries anymore to help feed their poor, because we have no jobs or money left ?

The American middle class is not "feeding" anyone's poor.

Should we stop all the billions of dollars of aid to Mexico since we are being forced to feed and educate them right here in our country or is it our obligation to do both??

I don't know much about that "aid". Educate me.
In any case, the US, as any country, has the right to attach conditions to whatever aid it gives. And in principle, it is each country's duty (Mexico in this case) to feed and educate their own people, of course.

I have many more examples but if you could answer these few maybe you could enlighten us as to why these people feel we owe this to them and why they think they are entitled ot our tax money, this money does not grow on trees it comes out of our pocket. Please help me out here!!

I personally don't feel entitled to any of your money. You can have it, and the more the better.
I can't speak for the rest of the undocumented population, but I would assume that they want some recognition for their contribution to society in the form of work and taxes, in some cases dating of many years.

There is a general question underlying many of your individual questions above, and that is: Are schools, hospitals or county codes the right instruments to enforce immigration law?
I believe that you would agree with me they aren't.

A final word: I am not "running" from you. Why would I?
I appreciate that finally somebody took the time of expressing his concerns in the form of coherent sentences.

Please let me know if you feel that I left anything out.

Mongo
www(Dot)itsnofun(Dot)com

Mad in Chicago,

Surprisingly, we agree in almost everything (except in the fact that my family and I are not going anywhere).
I do believe that Americans are resourceful, and that native IT professionals are being subjected to disloyal competence by the H-1B mills.
However, putting everything on the same bag of "corporate greed" and thinking that a wall in the southern border will solve your problems looks to me like a misplacement of energy.
Just a thought.

Mongo