Thread: Can the military protect our border?

I agree with the gentleman de la Mancha - not a bit quixotic, if you ask me

Clearly, we should focus on the incentives, since these have increased over the years, when we should have been decreasing them... Although all of us are aware of the government benefits that have increased, we've also increased corporate incentives (by reducing fines).

Who Left the Door Open? - Time Magazine - September 20th, 2004

Investigations targeting employers of illegal aliens dropped more than 70%, from 7,053 in 1992 to 2,061 in 2002.... Arrests on job sites declined from 8,027 in 1992 to 451 in 2002.... Perhaps the most dramatic decline: the final orders levying fines for immigration-law violations plunged 99%, from 1,063 in 1992 to 13 in 2002.

If we could levy over 1000 fines more than a decade ago, then why can't we do so today?.. And then maybe next year, we can find ways to increase the fines to 2000... We'll just keep increasing the pressure up every year until businesses do a cost/benefit (or risk/reward) analysis and decide (after considerable whining and lobbying, no doubt) that it's more profitable to either hire citizens and/or innovate through the development / purchase of labor-saving devices.

Better yet, just make the CEO or employer spend some time in jail for every conviction... Can you imagine the CEOs of Tyco Foods or Walmart spending jail time?.. They probably couldn't even take one day.

According to the president of the National Border Patrol Council, going after the employers is the ticket.

T.J. Bonner, president of the National Border Patrol Council, a labor organization that represents 10,000 border-patrol employees, believes the solution is obvious. The U.S. government, he says, should "issue a single document that's counterfeit proof, that has an embedded photograph, that says this person has a right to work in the U.S. And that document is the Social Security card. It's not a national ID card. It's a card that you have to carry when you apply for a job and only then. The employers run it through a scanner, and they get an answer in short order that says, Yes, you may hire, or No, you may not. That would cut off 98% of all the traffic across the border. With your work force of 10,000 border-patrol agents, you actually could control the borders.

But Bonner doesn't see that happening anytime soon because of pressure from corporate America... "All the politicians - it doesn't matter which side of the aisle you're on - rely heavily on the donations from Big Business," he says, "and Big Business likes this system [of cheap illegal labor]."

Whether you agree with his identification strategy, the implication is that if we stopped the hiring of illegal immigrants, then we would stop 98% of illegal immigration.

The temptation is to always focus on the illegals at the borders... This is natural, because we want to reduce the number of illegals and the borders is where they cross to get here... But I think it's better to focus on the proverbial "carrot" so to speak.

In the forum topic "Another way illegals bring in diseases", there's this article :
http://www.sci.sdsu.edu/salton/NewRToxicPathtoUSA.html

The article describes how illegals are willing to cross highly polluted, dangerous rivers to get here... And we all know how they'll jump on moving trains and try to go through the desert... They dig holes under fences too.

In the past, whenever the government agencies (i.e. ICE) have tried to step up interior enforcement, corporations have put pressure on elected officials, which in turn have told the agencies to back off... Yet, corporations don't have a problem with increased border enforcement, as it hasn't so far done much to stem the flow of cheap labor... Thus, congressional reps have found a way to placate their constituents while avoiding the outrage of their corporate benefactors that fund their re-election campaigns... The reps make strong statements and devote some resources to border enforcement while leaving interior enforcement alone.

So, what we have is the Guantlet of Death at the border... Then, when the illegals cross, we effectively say "Oh, so glad you made it... Here are jobs and benefits."

Increased border enforcement will help, but the illegals go to great lengths to get into this country... The few days of risk/travel/expense are worth the possibility of a lifetime of better opportunities...

In summary, the low-hanging fruit is increased interior enforcement...

Also, it would be good if we could somehow encourage the Mexican government to do something for their citizens... Perhaps, repealing NAFTA would help and applying pressure to give the farmers back their land... Stop the dumping of GMO food... Well, all of this may be difficult...

DonQuixote wrote:
rickesteves wrote:
I don't think there's a single person in America that doesn't unknowingly contribute to employment of illegal aliens at least indirectly.If you bought anything at your local super market lately it's impossible to tell who owns what now days and it is big business that keeps the political protection for the illegals going.You'd have to grow your own food and hunt your own meat etc. to not put money in the pockets of illegals which of course is what keeps them here.

You are probably right about that, I have little doubt. But those who are handing them the cash, and signing their paychecks, damn sure know about it, and those we can do something about.


Quite true Quixote.
Amen Don!

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY (greater detail below):

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/web ... id=7525396

Rep. Virgil Goode has reintroduced a bill H.R. 1986)[/color] that would authorize the Secretary of Defense to assign members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps to assist the Department of Homeland Security in the performance of border protection functions.

The Minuteman Project proved that all we need to stop illegal migration is to put people on the border. We don't need to create a new army to patrol our borders -- we already have one. Let's bring our boys home and put them on our own border where they can stop drugs, disease, illegal aliens and terrorists from entering our country.

We need your help to get additional cosponsors for this critically important legislation. It is foolhardy, if not insane, to consider going to war while our borders are left wide open. Please send email an letter to your Representative today. Thank you!

http://www.congress.org

I don't think the citizens should have the military imposed on their land. They should post those troops just over the border on what is now called Mexican territory. Why change the law prohibiting Army operations on U.S. land?

The border areas between our nations are wild and uncontrolled, this excuse has been used since the beginning of time to annex, or move troops in.


And, of course, you would declare martial law in the occupation zone. So as to avoid media and lawyers.





-n

I do not believe that militarization of the border necessarily means we have to create a region of martial law or anything. It does not need to look like the DMZ. All that is really needed is an increase in manpower to back up the border patrol. This can be accomplished with a fence, a couple thousand troops, and a couple hundred humvees... maybe throw in a little air surveillance as well. It is not like we are talking about confronting a major army at our border and we need artillery, tanks, pillboxes and napalm strikes.

The Posse Comitatus does not forbid deployment of American troops on American soil. It forbids the use of military assets to operate against AMERICAN CITIZENS. We deploy troops within the U.S.A. for maneuvers every day. Securing our border is a far more legitimate role of our military than operations overseas. Or do you actually believe that Posse comitatus forbids the use of American troops once airborne troops of a foreign nation are dropped within the U.S.A.? As if we are bound by law to stop fighting the enemy once they make it within our borders? Get real.

That having been said, i have also made it clear in other posts that I support militarization only after two other measures have been tried and failed... ending inticement to come here (by cracking down hard on employers and ending benefits to illegals), and deportation of all illegals we can catch.

I wont argue that employer sanctions, and deporting those who are already here, are necessary steps.

I don't think closing the border, possibly violating Mexican sovereignty, at the same time, is the same as "militarization".

If actually having a real border is ONLY to be undertaken AFTER employers are sanctioned, and deporting all the illegals we can catch, then we have lost the battle and the war.

Sanctioning employers would take a lot of time (years to get started), if there was political will, and there is none.

How many illegals could you deport in one WEEK if you used all available resources?

It probably would not exceed the number of invaders in one DAY.

Build a fence and man it with as many thousands of troops as necessary.

A closed physical border outside of official checkpoints is a solution that starts working instantly.


Your two measures will take years to begin, if they ever begin, in earnest.

Only after years will the measures(done half-heartedly, government-style) be deemed to have failed.



We don't have years. The problem will get to big. How do you deport 50 million people?


Employer sanctions are political untasteful, and mass deportation more so.


The problem needs to be nipped in the bud, at the border, before they get in.

Once they cross the border, they, and their children, in effect become "casualties" eating up hospital beds or resources. Once they get in, legions of attorneys lie in wait..... to strangle America to death.


That being said, I think Don's 2 measures are important and I would support their implementation, and support the election of someone who says they will do those things now. ( and if I believed that they would actually do it, I would probably not believe Hillary if she said it. And I probably would not believe John "Manchurian Candidate" McCain either.).

We must stop the endless thousands from crossing daily.



-n

p.s.

Sorry, if this rant belonged in an earlier thread. I just think that all is lost
if the flow is not stopped.

You might be able to eventually repel an invasion that has already crossed into your country, but your nation will be in smoldering ruins. If not everything, at least your schools and hospitals.
But who needs schools and hospitals, if you have cheap lettuce?





-n

I do not know why it should take years to impliment sanctions. Pass the law, giving employers 60 days to confirm who their employees are, or get rid of them, then start prosecuting. As far as that goes, there are already federal laws about this.. it is simply that it is not being enforced. THAT is a load of what comes from the south end of a northbound bull.

Heads should roll. Maybe an "ALL INCUMBENTS OUT" campaign in next elections.. including Tancredo.. we will make him Prez.

Yeah, it shouldn't take years, but you know how the bureaucracy works.


Tancredo,I definitely would support him for Prez, or for a border-state Governorship(if he intends to seal that states' border using state assets).
-n

Arizona is trying to pass new legislation to stop hiring of illegals. It is a question of lacking enforcement, though.


Governor Napalitano will probably veto it though, like she vetoes everything else.

But our new voter registration requiements have weeded out tons of unverifyable applications.

So maybe she wont win with a couple thousand "votes", next time, like the first election.

Guys, our troops are defending the border. It just happens to be South Korea's. I say bring those 35,000 guys home, put them on the Mexican border first, then pull the troops out of Europe and start putting men on the Canadian border. The flow will dry up like a puddle in the Sahara. I am sick to death of defending Korea, Europe and every other ungrateful third rate country while they skate by with little or no military of their own because the American taxpayers provide it for them.

Our politicians are so wound up in their own underwear about diplomacy and international cooperation, etc. ad nauseum, and meanwhile hardworking Americans are getting the shaft.

You can talk about our national interests overseas, but I challenge anyone to name one national interest greater than protecting our borders. Iraq and Afghanistan may be important, but they are trifling compared to the invasion that is taking place here.

We have to attack all of the axis of evil, the slimy politicians, the Hispanic apologist groups, and the criminal corporations that hire illegals.

Meanwhile put some freakin' grunts on the border!