Thread: Real healthcare cost?

Hi, this is my first post, I am interested to learn more about this issue.

One of the more recurring themes for people against the stay of illegal immigrants is because of their significant drain in the healthcare system. In addition, these services serve as an incentive for them to take risk to enter the boarder of America, resulting a vicious cycle.

However, as far as I am concerned, I don't see withdrawing all their right to access the health services would be a real solution, in fact, quite the opposite. Illegal immigrants ** might ** have brought undetected diseases from their homelands, or they might have contracted diseases within America, denying their right to healthcare while still allowing them to reside will make ALL Americans more prone to epidemics to previously-defeated contagious diseases (ie, flu going untreated and unmonitored). And it will have a tremedous negative impact on the nation, both on its financial loss and the already-established standard of health. It would be better to keep their health status in check, it may cost a sum of money now, but it might have prevent potential greater loss.

However, if the government takes no real action, this problem will not solve itself. Building a wall around the boarder sounds like an impractical idea. And conducting in massive deportation does sound very uncompassionate, especially, we have heard many stories of those hard-working individuals willing to take the jobs most Americans wouldn't consider. I am well-aware that their persistence and dedication at work do not automatically grant them right to residency, but I just don't see massive deportation going in line with the character and value of some representative groups in this nation. And without massive deportation, I don't see any real hindrance for potential illegal immigrants not to take advantage.

Any comments or criticisms will be more than welcome. And I would like to hear from you what you think is the best solution to the problem.

bravee1997, Welcome, although, I really don't see why you are here at a site that is made up of people , hard working people let me say, who are dedicated to seeing that our borders are secured, whatever it takes,fence,tecknology,more border agents or thousands of National Guard. What we would really like is for all these people who have broken our laws by sneaking over our borders, to go home and come back legally! If they came back legally they would be tested for diseases before coming here. since they did come here illegaly, I would not be against emergency medical care if needed, then if futher medical care was necessary, I feel they should be deported back to their own country for any medical care they might need. I get the impression either you are an illegal or a pro-illegal alien activist, just here to pull our chains more or less. Why don't you convince me just why you think these poor hardworking people, here doing the jobs that americans are no longer hired to do since our corporations can hire the illegals without paying any benefits or healthcare, why you think the rest of us, being legal citizens should be stuck with paying the health care of people who werent invited here in the first place? Why should we subsidize the care of the illegals as far as healthcare, cheap housing, food stamps, and all the rest of the benefits the illegals get just so the big business and the elite citizens of this country can have cheap labor? There is no way for you to convince me of this illogical kind of thinking, so about the only thing I have left to say is the illegals need to go home to their country, be the self-responsible person they owe it to theirself to be, pay for their own healthcare and keep any and all strange diseases they might have to theirself,pleaseeeeeeeee! I don't want to take them to raise, they are not my responsibility, and once and for all, my country will not perish or its economy collapse if all the illegals were deported, I refuse to buy in to that rediculouse notion the pro-illegal side wants me to buy into!

What we would really like is for all these people who have broken our laws by sneaking over our borders, to go home and come back legally!

Not me, I have no interest in seeing up to 30 million people, whom have already proven their disrespect for our laws, come back, legal or otherwise! Of course that's just me.

I have no problem with controlled legal immigration, but I'd prefer to never see those that have already proven their willingness to break our laws again. Those folks have already shown their stripes.

Well, bravee1997, you've got most of the talking points down, so I'll just address one of them

You say

However, as far as I am concerned, I don't see withdrawing all their right to access the health services would be a real solution, in fact, quite the opposite.

I don't think anybody is saying they can't access the health care system. What we are saying is they can't access it for free, any more than I can access it for free.

Why don't you work on a response to that before we go any farther here.

Nittygritty stated our position quite well. I would just like to add that the middle class in our country is declining thanks to the outsourcing of jobs overseas by big biz and our so-called leader, President Bush, is a big advocate of globalism. So we are becoming a society of rich and poor. The middle class has been the backbone of this country. Just read recently that Los Angeles now has only 24% of its population that is middle class. Do we want to become a society of rich and poor, slave masters and slaves? We, here, are deeply concerned about the future of this country and there is no way we can financially absorb million and millions of illegal immigrants without catastrophic consequences.

Nitty, I am afraid to let you know that your prediction is incorrect. I am indeed neutral, to be honest, I am not even living in the US (and I am very happy with my country so no worries we won't be meeting in yours soon, LOL, at least not in an illegal way), and I am quite new on this issue, thus I can't really set foot on either side before I have obtained enough evidence. However, I am going to write an essay on it.

Please read my post carefully, I have never said I disagreed on enforcing the boarder surveillance. I said specifically, building a wall alone seemed futile since they would just find other means.

I totally agree with you that anyone who deserves any right should obtain it through a legitimate means. However, my point is 1) some of you can't wait to see that illegal immigrants should be stripped away of any right including health services, 2) and I am suggesting that by withdrawing their right to healthcare WHILE keeping (at least the majority of) them in the country will likely endanger the health system even more due to the possible outbreaks.

It seems a solution is a massive deportation since it can effectively eradicate the incentive for future illegal exploitation. My concern is whether it is practical to deport this many illegal immigrants at this stage? If so, please explain how? If not, then, obviously having witnessed people already made it to the US will maintain, if not further encourage, this illegal behaviour.

Some of you appear to completely neglect the contribution made by these individuals. IMO, the term illegal ALIEN is stigmatizing and dehumanizing. ***SOME*** of them do work hard, have loving family and have contributed to the US economy (whether you like it or not). Does hardworking automatically lead to citizenship or equal right, definitely not. Do hardworking people deserve a special consideration than the opposite counterpart? To me (and I believe to many others), the answer is yes. Don't we give criminals, despite they have broken the law, a second chance if they have served their sentences, appear to truly repent, and have truly changed. Maybe this is where you get an idea that I am their advocate, but here is where I look at it from an ethical standpoint, not merely form a legal ground.

Where I am heading into is a question of whether there is an ideal solution which can eliminate further illegal immigration while sustain the **deserved/qualified** ones in the country, maybe having them to compensate and be qualified by working a certain period, paying extra tax, and ensuring a clean criminal record in order to give them a citizenship? If this ideal solution doesn't exist, what is the real solution in you guys' minds?

I totally agree with you that anyone who deserves any right should obtain it through a legitimate means. However, my point is 1) some of you can't wait to see that illegal immigrants should be stripped away of any right including health services, 2) and I am suggesting that by withdrawing their right to healthcare WHILE keeping (at least the majority of) them in the country will likely endanger the health system even more due to the possible outbreaks.

The better question would be, "what does YOUR COUNTRY do concerning ILLEGAL ALIENS?" What's your policy? Perhaps your essay would be best served if you were to focus on your country's Illegal Alien situation.

just a thought

First of the term "illegal alien" is the legal term for people who enter this country illegally. It is in the law books.

Second our position is not massive deportations. Our position is enforcing our laws which would lead to self-deportation of many. Penalizing employers who hire illegals, cutting off social services, deporting illegals law enforcement encounters on a day to day basis, etc.

Your point that SOME illegals contribute is a moot point. If you are not in this country you cannot have an educated opinion as to what is happening in this country. In California alone 84 hospitals have had to close due to illegal healthcare costs. That is just 1 state. There are many, many more hospitals teetering on the brink. The illegals that do contribute to the system do not even cover half the costs they incur. In my state illegal education, healthcare, and incarceration costs $2 billion dollars. The estimate is that illegals pay into the system $1 billion a year. That leaves my state alone $1 billion dollars in the hole. And who is paying that $1 billion. The American taxpayer. We are straining under the costs. The middle class cannot sustain supporting the illegals. Keep in mind these figures do not take into account welfare benefits, court costs, accidents caused by uninsured illegals, interpreters, printing everying in 2 or more languages, decreased wages, etc.

You ask what should we do with the illegals that "deserve/qualify" to stay. None deserve to stay, none are qualified to stay. If they were qualified to stay they would not be here illegally. The very first thing they did was commit a crime (crossing the border, overstaying a visa, etc.). After that they committed many more...driving without a license and insurance, identity theft, tax evasion, etc.

Point is they should not be in this country and should be made to leave. Cut off the incentives to be here and many will self deport and many contemplating crossing the border will decide not to. The stragglers that do not leave if our laws were enforced can then be more easily found and deported to their home country.

Count wrote:

I don't think anybody is saying they can't access the health care system. What we are saying is they can't access it for free, any more than I can access it for free.

Brilliant! I would like to see Bravee address this as well. There is something horribly wrong when an illegal alien can receive, say, a kidney transplant, free of charge, while an uninsured working American citizen could lose their home for inability to pay for that same proceedure.

Originally Posted by dlm1968

First of the term "illegal alien" is the legal term for people who enter this country illegally. It is in the law books.

Second our position is not massive deportations. Our position is enforcing our laws which would lead to self-deportation of many. Penalizing employers who hire illegals, cutting off social services, deporting illegals law enforcement encounters on a day to day basis, etc.

Your point that SOME illegals contribute is a moot point. If you are not in this country you cannot have an educated opinion as to what is happening in this country. In California alone 84 hospitals have had to close due to illegal healthcare costs. That is just 1 state. There are many, many more hospitals teetering on the brink. The illegals that do contribute to the system do not even cover half the costs they incur. In my state illegal education, healthcare, and incarceration costs $2 billion dollars. The estimate is that illegals pay into the system $1 billion a year. That leaves my state alone $1 billion dollars in the hole. And who is paying that $1 billion. The American taxpayer. We are straining under the costs. The middle class cannot sustain supporting the illegals. Keep in mind these figures do not take into account welfare benefits, court costs, accidents caused by uninsured illegals, interpreters, printing everying in 2 or more languages, decreased wages, etc.

You ask what should we do with the illegals that "deserve/qualify" to stay. None deserve to stay, none are qualified to stay. If they were qualified to stay they would not be here illegally. The very first thing they did was commit a crime (crossing the border, overstaying a visa, etc.). After that they committed many more...driving without a license and insurance, identity theft, tax evasion, etc.

Point is they should not be in this country and should be made to leave. Cut off the incentives to be here and many will self deport and many contemplating crossing the border will decide not to. The stragglers that do not leave if our laws were enforced can then be more easily found and deported to their home country.

First of all, I would like to thank you for all your inputs.

** No doubt illegal alien is a legal term. But not everything legal is morally acceptable to implement in our lives. Slavery was legal hundreds of years ago.

** Secondly, I have never made any claim on how the hard-working illegals can counterbalance the negative economic impact. All I am saying is SOME of them deserve special consideration IMO because of their characters on an individual basis.

** Your point of view is over-generalizing and over-simplifying the problem. What if an illegal happens to save your kids or other family from a fire, as a hypothetical example? Don't you think it will be inhumane to say thanks for saving my family, but I am calling the police to deport you. Your assumption that they will commit more crimes is again overgeneralizing. But , I may be talking about an ** extremely ** small number here.

** Your solution seems intriguing. To me, it sounds like "making their lives living in US miserable enough to make them leave voluntarily." Did method like this work in any other countries or similar circumstances in the history? I am foreseeing they would just go to underground market for health and other services, and if they can't find jobs in any other way, there are only FEW dangerous options left BEFORE leaving US voluntarily. So I question the practicality of self-deportation.

** (this is addressing other responder) I totally protest that illegals should ***somehow*** pay equivalent medical insurance bills just like every other US citizens. My question comes next, would be how to get them pay the bills afterward or beforehand. I think we are getting into somewhere, why doesn't the government set up an insurance system and make sure those illegals can pay their health insurance, and hence, it will have a stronger say when denying services to those who don't have such insurance?