Thread: Judge: Wiretapping surveillance program unconstitutional

BTT

Originally Posted by Ladydrake

All of you who say oh they can spy on me, I have nothing to hide or it's ok that they spy on me because of the war on terror, what rubbish.

Their position is no more bs than yours. Neither side is right or wrong. There are pro's and con's to both sides. At least you all still get to make that choice. You should be glad for it.

FALSE. The side that says that the government should be constrained from spying on us whether or not we "have anything to hide" has the clear distinction that it is backed by the verbiage of the Bill of Rights. It is a position that states legal fact rather than opinion, unless you accept that the Bill of Rights is now null and void. Is that your premise? Is it your idea that a simple majority, not even of citizens but merely of elected representatives or worse yet, simply the Executive Branch in the person of the President, may set aside any provision of the Bill of Rights that they or he find problematic for their policies? That seems to me to be a recipe for instant tyranny.

There are proper procedures for altering the BINDING compact between We the People and our government. Amendment of the Constitution requires a supermajority, and for good reason. How long do you think any of our rights would last if they could be dismantled by the opposition just once obtaining a simple majority to overturn them? Tyrant will always prey upon fears in times of trouble to make good people make bad decisions and to divide us with straw man arguments, such as that whether or not a person may or may not have something to hide has anything whatsoever to do with whether his rights should be waived. Rights protect the innocent and guilty alike.

CrocketsGhost, In theory you are correct, what you say is true. We are living in new times though, I am sure our forefathers never in their wildest dreams considered there would be radical Islamic jihadist, out there hell bent on destroying America and amreicans wherever they can. This is the reality, we are living in a time when we have no idea when or where the next 911 is going to happen. This is not normal times but chaoitic dangerous times for all Americans. My feelings are, if we don't get down and play almost as dirty on the level of these terroist, they they are going to win and we will no longer have an America or a bill of rights or a constitution to worry about following anyway! It seems to me that a lot of our Leaders and Americans to are willing to twist, bend, or downright ignore our constitution whenever it pleases them to do so, so why in Gods name are we worried about a piece of paper to make things all legal in the fight on terror? I say, use what tools we have to put these bastards away before they have the chance to kill or maim the one child I have remaning to me or my grandchildren. If some terroist was able to carry out their wishes by calling here to America and waking some dam sleeper cell of jihadist, probably in our country illegaly, because our government was not able to get the warrant fast enough to catch the plan of action before it happened, and were able to kill my family, then I say to you, the constitution wouldnt mean a dam thing to me in that case anyway! Do you remember that old commercial about its better to be wrong then it is to be dead? the one about the pedestrian stepping off in the street and getting hit by the car? Even though the pedestrian had the right of way to walk into the street, there was a car coming to hit them so therefore being right didnt matter much because they were dead, dead right that is! I am as patriotic as any of you, but the old Indian in me says it is better to live to fight another day then it is to die a hero today by never stepping out of the bounds of our constitution and bill of rights! I worship the bible because it is his word though written by men with divine help, not the constitution written by men who had no concept of what we would be fighting in the future like these radical islamic jihadist who want to wipe us "infidels" off the face of the earth at any cost! Yes, I am willing to lose a little of my liberties to keep from losing all my freedoms in the end! Isn't it grand that we live in as free of an America as we do, and be able to argue these points amongst us?

Nittygritty wrote:. My feelings are, if we don't get down and play almost as dirty on the level of these terroist, they they are going to win and we will no longer have an America or a bill of rights or a constitution to worry about following anyway!

When the majority of America starts thinking that way, then theyve won already.

CrocketsGhost, In theory you are correct, what you say is true. We are living in new times though, I am sure our forefathers never in their wildest dreams considered there would be radical Islamic jihadist, out there hell bent on destroying America and amreicans wherever they can. This is the reality, we are living in a time when we have no idea when or where the next 911 is going to happen. This is not normal times but chaoitic dangerous times for all Americans. My feelings are, if we don't get down and play almost as dirty on the level of these terroist, they they are going to win and we will no longer have an America or a bill of rights or a constitution to worry about following anyway! It seems to me that a lot of our Leaders and Americans to are willing to twist, bend, or downright ignore our constitution whenever it pleases them to do so, so why in Gods name are we worried about a piece of paper to make things all legal in the fight on terror? I say, use what tools we have to put these bastards away before they have the chance to kill or maim the one child I have remaning to me or my grandchildren. If some terroist was able to carry out their wishes by calling here to America and waking some dam sleeper cell of jihadist, probably in our country illegaly, because our government was not able to get the warrant fast enough to catch the plan of action before it happened, and were able to kill my family, then I say to you, the constitution wouldnt mean a dam thing to me in that case anyway! Do you remember that old commercial about its better to be wrong then it is to be dead? the one about the pedestrian stepping off in the street and getting hit by the car? Even though the pedestrian had the right of way to walk into the street, there was a car coming to hit them so therefore being right didnt matter much because they were dead, dead right that is! I am as patriotic as any of you, but the old Indian in me says it is better to live to fight another day then it is to die a hero today by never stepping out of the bounds of our constitution and bill of rights! I worship the bible because it is his word though written by men with divine help, not the constitution written by men who had no concept of what we would be fighting in the future like these radical islamic jihadist who want to wipe us "infidels" off the face of the earth at any cost! Yes, I am willing to lose a little of my liberties to keep from losing all my freedoms in the end! Isn't it grand that we live in as free of an America as we do, and be able to argue these points amongst us?

Well said, nittygritty!

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Nittygritty wrote:. My feelings are, if we don't get down and play almost as dirty on the level of these terroist, they they are going to win and we will no longer have an America or a bill of rights or a constitution to worry about following anyway!

Jbird quoted,
When the majority of America starts thinking that way, then theyve won already.

Jbird, that is a matter of opinion, I will tell you though, If you are right and we quit using the tools we have to catch these nasty birds, and if God forbid you wind up dying as a Martyr, in a bomb blast from a terroist slipping through the net, and I escape, I promise I will do anything in my power to get the scum bags for you!

I am not tring to anger you here, we all have different opinions, my opinion happens to be that I feel the same about you as you do me, in my opinion, if all Americans think the same way you do, then we have already lost the war on terror!

I will make a deal with you, I will make a study of our constitution if you will read a book called "They Just Don't Get It" by retired Col, David Hunt!

Let me ask the ALIPAC members against the wiretapping this: Would you support wiretapping if there was a way it could be used to deport a bulk of the 12-20 million illegal immigrants currently residing and working in the United States?

Hey, why hasn't anyone answered my question?

MW, I am sorry I can't answer your question, since I feel the same way you do about the wiretapping, I do have a question for you though.
Say our country is wiretapping the phones and listening in to conversations between Al-Keida overseas made to others like them here in America, would it be fair to jump to the conclusion these people here in America,a large percentage of them anyway, might be here illegal, do you feel we are breaking their constitutional rights by listening in to their conversations?

Originally Posted by nittygritty

CrocketsGhost, In theory you are correct, what you say is true. We are living in new times though, I am sure our forefathers never in their wildest dreams considered there would be radical Islamic jihadist, out there hell bent on destroying America and amreicans wherever they can. This is the reality, we are living in a time when we have no idea when or where the next 911 is going to happen. This is not normal times but chaoitic dangerous times for all Americans. My feelings are, if we don't get down and play almost as dirty on the level of these terroist, they they are going to win and we will no longer have an America or a bill of rights or a constitution to worry about following anyway! It seems to me that a lot of our Leaders and Americans to are willing to twist, bend, or downright ignore our constitution whenever it pleases them to do so, so why in Gods name are we worried about a piece of paper to make things all legal in the fight on terror? I say, use what tools we have to put these bastards away before they have the chance to kill or maim the one child I have remaning to me or my grandchildren. If some terroist was able to carry out their wishes by calling here to America and waking some dam sleeper cell of jihadist, probably in our country illegaly, because our government was not able to get the warrant fast enough to catch the plan of action before it happened, and were able to kill my family, then I say to you, the constitution wouldnt mean a dam thing to me in that case anyway! Do you remember that old commercial about its better to be wrong then it is to be dead? the one about the pedestrian stepping off in the street and getting hit by the car? Even though the pedestrian had the right of way to walk into the street, there was a car coming to hit them so therefore being right didnt matter much because they were dead, dead right that is! I am as patriotic as any of you, but the old Indian in me says it is better to live to fight another day then it is to die a hero today by never stepping out of the bounds of our constitution and bill of rights! I worship the bible because it is his word though written by men with divine help, not the constitution written by men who had no concept of what we would be fighting in the future like these radical islamic jihadist who want to wipe us "infidels" off the face of the earth at any cost! Yes, I am willing to lose a little of my liberties to keep from losing all my freedoms in the end! Isn't it grand that we live in as free of an America as we do, and be able to argue these points amongst us?

First, nothing you wrote changed the fact that the correct way to change the Constitution is to amend it by the consent of the governed, NOT BY CAPRICE.

Is this or is it not a nation pf laws, not of men? If this is a nation of laws, then disregarding the Supreme Law of the Land whenever it becomes inconvenient is utterly unacceptable and undermines the fundamental values upon which this nation was built.

I understand your fears, but that does not give you the right to waive MY rights or anyone else's, which is what you are supporting when you support laws that circumvent the Bill of Rights. My rights were given to me by the Creator; not by you; not by government. I can waive my rights and my Creator can set aside my rights. Anything else is, by definition, a usurpation.

Lastly, I submit that we as a nation would better off suffering another terrorist attack that got this government off its arse and truly committed to winning WWIII than we would be allowing that same worthless government to leave our enemies to their mischief while making subjects and serfs of the free people of this country.

And before you insult my intelligence with the claim that this government program is truly aimed at thwarting terrorists rather than undermining sovereignty, I ask you to reconcile the clear facts of the matter. Specifically, how can you believe that this government is so concerned about "protecting us" that it must even violate our rights "for our own good" when that same government simultaneously is abetting an invasion from across our southern border across which any terrorist may simply walk or ride carrying bombs, bioweapons, etc.? Does that make any sense to you? It sure as hell does not compute with me!

Originally Posted by nittygritty

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Nittygritty wrote:. My feelings are, if we don't get down and play almost as dirty on the level of these terroist, they they are going to win and we will no longer have an America or a bill of rights or a constitution to worry about following anyway!

Jbird quoted,
When the majority of America starts thinking that way, then theyve won already.

Jbird, that is a matter of opinion, I will tell you though, If you are right and we quit using the tools we have to catch these nasty birds, and if God forbid you wind up dying as a Martyr, in a bomb blast from a terroist slipping through the net, and I escape, I promise I will do anything in my power to get the scum bags for you!

I am not tring to anger you here, we all have different opinions, my opinion happens to be that I feel the same about you as you do me, in my opinion, if all Americans think the same way you do, then we have already lost the war on terror!

I will make a deal with you, I will make a study of our constitution if you will read a book called "They Just Don't Get It" by retired Col, David Hunt!

Again you confuse fact and opinion. The simple FACT is that we are allowing our Constitutional protections to be set aside by a fear-mongering government. There is no dispute that both the letter and the spirit of numerous articles of the Bill of Rights are being vilated daily. That is a fact, not an opinion.