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  1. #11
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    Whats with the rash of trolls lately?

    A true free market is driven by supply and demand. I appreciatte your spin to try and make anti-illegal immigration seem as if it is socialism, but it is highly uninformed. The import of illegal labor is anti-free market. Illegal labor is not part of capitalism. You are advocating crime as a means to an end.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chosen
    Whats with the rash of trolls lately?

    A true free market is driven by supply and demand. I appreciatte your spin to try and make anti-illegal immigration seem as if it is socialism, but it is highly uninformed. The import of illegal labor is anti-free market. Illegal labor is not part of capitalism. You are advocating crime as a means to an end.
    I was commenting on the post related to H1-Bs not illegal immigrants. That said, the same dynamic is at work even in the illegal worker case. There is a demand from businesses for cheap labor that acts as a magnet for people across the border. The underlying force is economic. There is no legal way for Mexicans to access the job market across the border which leads to many crossing illegally. Its an unhealthy situation no doubt and one that begs for a solution.

  3. #13
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    This "unlimited H1-B" idea is just another way of outsourcing American jobs (in this case, good-paying technical jobs)! If the corporations are allowed to continue this practice, thus driving down the wages of American workers, we will have no middle class left! This is not about a "need to stay competitive in a global market"; it's about corporate greed run amok! We need to find as many of the corporations backing this as possible, and organize boycotts of as many of them as we can. We already sent a message to our spineless and power-hungry politicians; now, it's time to send a message to these corporations, and the best way to do that is to hit them where they will feel it-in the bottom line!
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  4. #14
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    Ah geez, do I really need to deal with this nonsense...?

    Well, of course its about money like it would be in any free market capitalist society.
    Of course, since money is involved, we should allow people of any age, any situation to sell their 'personal services' to any 'willing customer' (eg. remove laws prohibiting prostitution). Similarly, we could legalize all drugs - then there wouldn't be any 'illicit drug use' - it would all be legal - open to the highest bidding persons. No - money is important, but it is not the ONLY thing in the world either. So laws, and national entities are unimportant? I don't think so.

    As consumers, we all want free markets so that airfares and cars and all the things we consume remain cheap as a consequence so why should it be any different for businesses?
    "We" do? You never asked me. I regularly and purposefully do not buy the cheapest things available. Quality and [corporate] responsibility also factor in to the decision.

    If a business faces a choice between going out of business and hiring the cheapest foreign labor available in the market (or outsourcing), what should they do?
    It's a false choice. The third choice of remaining consistent with US law and keeping a native and lawful workforce is still possible as well. The company could choose to reduce costs in other ways or change the nature of their business as well. In the US, there are laws which expressly prohibit the discrimination by country of origin-yes, which includes the US. If companies are not hiring Americans because they are Americans, than that *IS* discrimination under our law, and those companies should be brought to bear responsibility by the full weight of the law.

    Any rational person would do the exact same thing in such a situation which is to look at the bottomline.
    As Adam Smith and others have noted, not all actors in an economy always 'act' rationally. People have other values and interests - not everything is monetized.

    To interfere in free choices in a free market is nothing more than a way of imposing socialism.
    All governments in every country on the planet 'interfere' in economic activities in a plethora of ways: the imposition of taxes on citizens, the imposition of tariffs of imported goods, the control of which persons are given permission to legally work in an economy, etc.
    If any government input or 'interference' is equated with 'socialism', then I guess socialist is rather rampant and healthy in this day and age.

    FYI: Pre NAFTA, the US had a trade SURPLUS with Mexico. Within 1-2 years after its signing/implementation, the US had a trade deficit with Mexico - which has remained until the present time.

    No takers here Crikey.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member BorderLegionnaire's Avatar
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    I just don't understand this.... Millions of Americans are unemployed and underemployed! And having unlimited H-1Bs will not help this in anyway! Microsoft are all criminals they basically hire slaves to code or close enough where they salary is so low you might as well be a slave...
    Our country's founders cherished liberty, not democracy.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhredE
    Ah geez, do I really need to deal with this nonsense...?

    As consumers, we all want free markets so that airfares and cars and all the things we consume remain cheap as a consequence so why should it be any different for businesses?
    "We" do? You never asked me. I regularly and purposefully do not buy the cheapest things available. Quality and [corporate] responsibility also factor in to the decision.
    This is not what I said. Of course nobody buys something just because it is the cheapest. But normal people do not like to pay extra unless they perceive a benefit. Everybody has a different level of how much they are willing to pay for quality. A student may be willing to buy a used car for $1000 because that is the maximum she is willing to pay for the privilege of owning a car. You may choose to buy a new BMW but note that even here you would probably go with the dealer selling for the cheapest price. This is the same rule that companies play by in a free market. A company may very well conclude that an H1-B is likely to work harder and longer than a US citizen because it is that much harder for an H1-B to change jobs. Ultimately this translates to money for the company which is what companies care about most because otherwise they could go out of business.

    It's a false choice. The third choice of remaining consistent with US law and keeping a native and lawful workforce is still possible as well. The company could choose to reduce costs in other ways or change the nature of their business as well. In the US, there are laws which expressly prohibit
    the discrimination by country of origin-yes, which includes the US. If companies are not hiring Americans because they are Americans, than that *IS* discrimination under our law, and those companies should be brought to bear responsibility by the full weight of the law.

    I disagree. There is no discrimination in the US against Americans or anybody which is why it remains the best country in the world. You may not like it but companies care only about the bottomline which is quite natural and healthy for an economy because it improves efficiency. If a company feels that they can function more efficiently by outsourcing or hiring H1-Bs who are likely to stay longer with the company, then that is what they will try to do, whether we like it or not. It has nothing to do with discrimination against Americans, its all about economics. Lastly its not easy for a company to just change its line of business. Last week Earthlink cut a 1000 jobs and shut an office down, its the real world. Should they be allowed to outsource to stay in business?


    FYI: Pre NAFTA, the US had a trade SURPLUS with Mexico. Within 1-2 years after its signing/implementation, the US had a trade deficit with Mexico - which has remained until the present time.
    Sorry but there is no rule that says that trade deficits are bad. Even the celebrated Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman argued that trade deficits do not necessarily mean anything bad or good.
    Many other highly developed countries have been running trade deficits for decades without any issues. Likewise a poor country could run a trade surplus like Mexico does, so what's the point? Anytime we borrow money to buy a house or a car, we are running a trade deficit with somebody, is that so bad?

  7. #17
    Super Moderator imblest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crikey
    I disagree. There is no discrimination in the US against Americans or anybody which is why it remains the best country in the world. You may not like it but companies care only about the bottomline which is quite natural and healthy for an economy because it improves efficiency. If a company feels that they can function more efficiently by outsourcing or hiring H1-Bs who are likely to stay longer with the company(???), then that is what they will try to do, whether we like it or not. It has nothing to do with discrimination against Americans, its all about economics.
    Obviously, you have not watched this video of lawyers explaining to companies how to get around the requirement that no Americans can be found for a job before they can bring in someone neeeding a green card.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

    When these lawyers talk about ways to disqualify American applicants, they use ANYTHING they wish, such as "your experience isn't *recent* enough" or "you're overqualified (translation: because you have an MBA and we don't care that you would take low pay because we use the excuse that you'll leave if a better job comes along, even if it's not so. Even if you'd be so glad to get this job that you'd take half the pay just so you could work in your field again!)."

    When companies are looking for reasons NOT to hire you, yet pretending the opposite, that is DISCRIMINATION because Americans are not given an equal opportunity for the job. Now if companies offered jobs to Americans, and could find no citizen willing to take the job, then I MIGHT feel differently, but they won't even give Americans a chance! And I guarantee you there are plenty of Americans out there who would be thrilled to have some job security--they would definitely be likely to stay longer with the company, as you put it!

    (And this doesn't even get into the covert age discrimination that goes on!)
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  8. #18

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    Having been told I'm "over-qualified" for every job under the sun, I agree there is rampant discrimination against Americans. I WOULD take half the pay I deserve but it's hard to bring this fact up - they think what's wrong with this person? I'm the best bargain you could ever find in materials engineering, and now I've been putting in applications to Starbucks and whatnot. I absolutely HAVE to get a job soon or I'll be homeless. I would gladly stay at a decent company for the rest of my career and have stated so. That should make me a better investment than an H1B. I also saw in the news yesterday that Americans are the most productive workers on the planet - the most wealth created per capita. I'm sick to death of hearing about jobs Americans "can't" or "won't" do - how in the heck did this country become a superpower if we're so dumb and lazy?

  9. #19
    Senior Member BearFlagRepublic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sofedup
    I'm sick to death of hearing about jobs Americans "can't" or "won't" do - how in the heck did this country become a superpower if we're so dumb and lazy?
    Amen to that. I am DAMN sick of hearing it too. And somehow, the Third World cess pool below us has an army of hard workers that are better than us. Its utter nonsense. They say it is about "efficiency." Bogus. We ARE efficient. When they say this, they are using it as a code word for CHEAP.
    Serve Bush with his letter of resignation.

    See you at the signing!!

  10. #20
    Senior Member NoIllegalsAllowed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-I-am
    I hate Microshaft. Microshaft makes me want to support software piracy.
    What? http://thepiratebay.org/search/microsof ... 00,400,600
    Free Ramos and Compean NOW!

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