Thread: Microsoft Hires Lobbyist Firm to push increasing H-1B

Originally Posted by imblest

Originally Posted by Crikey

I disagree. There is no discrimination in the US against Americans or anybody which is why it remains the best country in the world. You may not like it but companies
care only about the bottomline which is quite natural and healthy for an economy because it improves efficiency. If a company feels that they can function more efficiently
by outsourcing or hiring H1-Bs who are likely to stay longer with the company(???),
then that is what they will try to do, whether we like it or not. It has nothing to do with discrimination against Americans, its all about economics.

Regarding your question mark about my comment that H1-Bs are likely to stay longer with a company, the reason is that it is that much harder for an H1-B to change jobs and especially so if they are locked into the green card process. Once they are in the green card process which lasts for many years, they have to remain with the same company and switching companies resets the whole process again meaning another long wait with the same onerous restrictions. What this means is that H1-Bs are likely to work harder and stay longer with a company because they cannot afford to get fired. This is the main economic reason why an employer may tend to favor hiring an immigrant. If the green card process/H1-B etc were to be untethered from the company then you would notice that companies would see less of a difference between hiring Americans and foreigners on visas. It would benefit Americans and companies would have to deal fairly with everybody, aliens and Americans alike. However politically it would not pass because the thought of giving more freedoms to aliens (even if it helps the American worker) will be resisted by many.

Obviously, you have not watched this video of lawyers explaining to companies how to get around the requirement that no Americans can be found for a job before they can bring in someone neeeding a green card.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

When these lawyers talk about ways to disqualify American applicants, they use ANYTHING they wish, such as "your experience isn't *recent* enough" or "you're overqualified (translation: because you have an MBA and we don't care that you would take low pay because we use the excuse that you'll leave if a better job comes along, even if it's not so. Even if you'd be so glad to get this job that you'd take half the pay just so you could work in your field again!)."

When companies are looking for reasons NOT to hire you, yet pretending the opposite, that is DISCRIMINATION because Americans are not given an equal opportunity for the job. Now if companies offered jobs to Americans, and could find no citizen willing to take the job, then I MIGHT feel differently, but they won't even give Americans a chance! And I guarantee you there are plenty of Americans out there who would be thrilled to have some job security--they would definitely be likely to stay longer with the company, as you put it!

(And this doesn't even get into the covert age discrimination that goes on!)

I have seen this video before but it has to be seen in a wider context. The general green card rules are that a company has to prove that there is no qualified American available for the position the alien is working in (note that the alien is already working in the company and is not being brought in later). Now obviously if you looked hard enough and paid high enough you would almost always find a suitable American for the same job. But the issue is that it may not be cost effective for a company to simply fire an alien who has already been working for them for a few years, and spend more time and money on retraining a new worker for possibly a higher wage with none of the benefits they get from an alien. The main reasons for this impractical rule are mainly political. Policy makers and politicians have to be seen to be making an effort to protect the American worker and at the same time not make the rules so onerous that no alien can get to work in the US. The other aspect of this is that all this is not a zero sum game. If an alien comes to work in the US, it does not mean that another American automatically loses his/her job. Likewise many companies would go out of business if they did not get a respite from cheaper immigrant workers (note that an immigrant who works harder and longer is basically cheaper).

Crikey,

I am willing to work at H1B wages - around here they seem to be doing pretty well. A dream life compared to mine, actually. I'm not waiting for higher wages - I'm not picky and I will work as many hours as needed. I've sent out countless apps for positions I am completely qualified for - but do I hear anything back? I called the H1B pipeline and asked if it's true they get many of their guys in through the "back door" (around HR - sort of like chain migration, where often the hiring manager is foreign). He said of course! I asked if there was anything like that for citizens, hmmmmm, none. Any suggestions? I'm completely desperate! I think you offered before to look at my resume, but I can give you enough specifics without giving my info away. If you know anyone doing materials research, especially solar or renewable energies, I'll jump on it. Then again, I would gladly put on a clean suit and check wafers all night, but no one will hire me because I'm "overqualified." No insurance, no benefits, no money, no mortgage, no assistance from my government, no hope, and this is what can happen when you master the hardest fields around and you are American.

In an article in Business Week the story of entreprenuer, Jon Carson was told. Carson needed senior programmers for a new venture. He knew that the going rate for an American programmer with such skills was $80,000 a year in the Boston area. He was offered the opportunity to hire Indian programmers at $40,000 a year. Carson was willing to pay a slight premium to get the work done close to home. So, to test the waters he placed a job ad in the Boston Globe for the programmers with a salary offer of $45,000. He was shocked at the response to the add. He was FLOODED with resumes of high quality American programmers willing to work for $45,000 a year -- less than half the starting salary of a fresh bachelor's degree computer science graduate. This story is not uncommon. It is backed up by an IT research company, Foote Partners LLC, which determined that offshoring had eroded IT salaries by 8-23% for various specialties.

I would say that Americans are certainly being discriminated against. The employers are simply addicted to foreign labor at this point. The wage depression has already taken hold, and Americans are willing to lower their standards to take a job in their field of expertise. Its not about employers fear of going out of business. Its their bias against American workers.

Please go to this site to sign the petition........Don't forget to pass it on to as many people as possible.

The American Worker Needs Your Help!

......"Be it resolved therefore that the undersigned respectfully urge America's leaders to address the crisis facing American workers and commit to preserving American jobs for Americans; enforcing effective sanctions against employers hiring illegal aliens; requiring employers to hire Americans first, making their own aspirations and dreams of a middle class life a reality."


http://americanworker.org

Crikey--Please read this whole post carefully before responding!

Originally Posted by Crikey

Originally Posted by imblest

I disagree. There is no discrimination in the US against Americans or anybody which is why it remains the best country in the world. You may not like it but companies care only about the bottomline which is quite natural and healthy for an economy because it improves efficiency. If a company feels that they can function more efficiently by outsourcing or hiring H1-Bs who are likely to stay longer with the company(???), then that is what they will try to do, whether we like it or not. It has nothing to do with discrimination against Americans, its all about economics.

Regarding your question mark about my comment that H1-Bs are likely to stay longer with a company, the reason is that it is that much harder for an H1-B to change jobs and especially so if they are locked into the green card process.

Not the point. My point was "Why wouldn't Americans want to stay longer?" My husband would LOVE a little job security!

Originally Posted by Crikey

Originally Posted by imblest

Obviously, you have not watched this video of lawyers explaining to companies how to get around the requirement that no Americans can be found for a job before they can bring in someone neeeding a green card.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

When these lawyers talk about ways to disqualify American applicants, they use ANYTHING they wish, such as "your experience isn't *recent* enough" or "you're overqualified (translation: because you have an MBA and we don't care that you would take low pay because we use the excuse that you'll leave if a better job comes along, even if it's not so. Even if you'd be so glad to get this job that you'd take half the pay just so you could work in your field again!) ."

When companies are looking for reasons NOT to hire you, yet pretending the opposite, that is DISCRIMINATION because Americans are not given an equal opportunity for the job. Now if companies offered jobs to Americans, and could find no citizen willing to take the job, then I MIGHT feel differently, but they won't even give Americans a chance! And I guarantee you there are plenty of Americans out there who would be thrilled to have some job security--they would definitely be likely to stay longer with the company, as you put it!

(And this doesn't even get into the covert age discrimination that goes on!)

I have seen this video before but it has to be seen in a wider context. The general green card rules are that a company has to prove that there is no qualified American available for the position the alien is working in (note that the alien is already working in the company and is not being brought in later). Now obviously if you looked hard enough and paid high enough you would almost always find a suitable American for the same job.

Did you not read what I said about taking a job at half pay? (see the above in blue) It doesn't matter! Didn't you read what sofedup said? He stated it so well-

Crikey,
I am willing to work at H1B wages - around here they seem to be doing pretty well. A dream life compared to mine, actually. I'm not waiting for higher wages - I'm not picky and I will work as many hours as needed. I've sent out countless apps for positions I am completely qualified for - but do I hear anything back? I called the H1B pipeline and asked if it's true they get many of their guys in through the "back door" (around HR - sort of like chain migration, where often the hiring manager is foreign). He said of course! I asked if there was anything like that for citizens, hmmmmm, none. Any suggestions? I'm completely desperate! I think you offered before to look at my resume, but I can give you enough specifics without giving my info away. If you know anyone doing materials research, especially solar or renewable energies, I'll jump on it. Then again, I would gladly put on a clean suit and check wafers all night, but no one will hire me because I'm "overqualified." No insurance, no benefits, no money, no mortgage, no assistance from my government, no hope, and this is what can happen when you master the hardest fields around and you are American.

Reread BearFlagRepublic's post about the article in Business Week, too. Right now, my husband with a BSME and an MBA, and >10 years experience with CAD and systems admin, is working reading meters for $10 an hour. DON'T TELL ME AMERICANS WANT TOO MUCH MONEY! THIS IS A LIE!

Originally Posted by Crikey

But the issue is that it may not be cost effective for a company to simply fire an alien who has already been working for them for a few years, and spend more time and money on retraining a new worker for possibly a higher wage with none of the benefits they get from an alien. The main reasons for this impractical rule are mainly political. Policy makers and politicians have to be seen to be making an effort to protect the American worker and at the same time not make the rules so onerous that no alien can get to work in the US.

And why did these companies hire a foreigner with a green card to start with? Same reason they hire H1Bs. If it's such a pain for them, they should at least give an American a chance!! (Again see BearFlagRepublic's post.)

Originally Posted by Crikey

The other aspect of this is that all this is not a zero sum game. If an alien comes to work in the US, it does not mean that another American automatically loses his/her job. Likewise many companies would go out of business if they did not get a respite from cheaper immigrant workers (note that an immigrant who works harder and longer is basically cheaper).

Again, I say, this is a LIE! I don't know how this has become the stereotype, but it is just that, a stereotype, and NOT TRUE! Regarding BearFlagRepublic's post, are you just ignoring the truth? I think you really aren't interested in the truth, as it would be too uncomfortable for many who have convinced themselves that they are the saviors of these greedy corporations. Truth is truth, no matter what anyone else says.

How about reading these posts carefully before flying into a response that totally ignores much of what is said?

And I think you meant a "respite with" not a "respite from". "Respite from" means to take a break or get relief away from something, and I would LOVE to see companies take a respite from hiring immigrants in place of Americans!.

It's soo sad to see this happening to American workers! Will there even be hope for our children and grandchildren??

I can say that even at some of the "greatest American companies to work for" there is wage depression. I worked for Southwest Airlines in customer service for over 4 years. They make you work HARD, basically working as much in a typical day as 2 people would work, and always wanting you to work even harder! (Not to mention the constant "team meetings" where they were asking us to cut costs even more, although we were working ourselves to the bone. The airline was making TONS of profits, and working people to death.) The pay was barely decent, and they try to make up with it with stock options and parties. Yes, they treat you right, but you know what? I needed a better wage to live on. And the stock options were worth NOTHING when I left, as the stock of SWA has never recovered from 9/11, and everyone there has worthless stock. The performance stress was enormous, and when my parents offered me a job with better pay and much less stress, I took it!

Southwest used to be the best company to work for, but my friends who still work there say that, despite all the parties and luncheons they throw, things are getting worse every day as the new CEO's look to pinch every penny and see how few employees they can get away with in each department to do the workload of many more. Parties only make up for so much! And, yes, you can have job security there, if you can take the long term pressure to outperform all expectations. I felt my sanity was worth more.

This seems to be a universal problem with all corporations, no matter who runs them these days!

TexasGal

Well TexasGal that helps explain the recent news that Americans are the most productive workers on the planet. I realize it's partly because of the infrastructure in place (set-up through American tax-money and still subsidized) but I have met people from Europe who are amazed how little free time we have and how much we are asked to do. Most do not work as many hours in a week and get far more time off. They feel it's more important to be sane and spend time with your family and communities than boost company profits. Sad truth is, it's not working for them either, lately - the welfare state is being abused and the tax rate is phenomenal.
I met a couple women with average jobs from Germany a long time ago who each had a month off and enough money to go anywhere they wanted - but then they did mention that US reparations to Germany had a lot to do with the high living standard. Are we still giving those to Japan and Germany?
Thanks everyone for spreading the truth. I feel hopeful again - that Americans will wake up and things will get better.

Originally Posted by imblest

Not the point. My point was "Why wouldn't Americans want to stay longer?" My husband would LOVE a little job security!

You misunderstood me. The issue isn't whether Americans want to stay longer or not. Its just that they have the freedom to change jobs any time they like, something which H1-Bs do not have. For e.g if you are working in a job for a year and you find a nice job that pays 20% more, you would probably change over to the new company. An H1-B, particularly somebody locked into a multi-year green card process would not even think about it because it would mean having to start the whole long process again. This is what companies exploit and quite naturally. They know that H1-Bs are more likely to stay on even when they may have other options. They would also work harder as a precaution and would also be less likely to demand raises etc. Its just economics and has nothing to do with discrimination against Americans. The irony is that these restrictions placed on foreign H1-B workers actually end up hurting American workers. This is what usually happens when the free market is compromised. Note that immigrants with green cards do not have the same appeal to companies because they are free to move as well.

I can see why you are upset but it has nothing to do with any deliberate discrimination against Americans, it is all economic.
I am too backed up to write more but I will when I get a chance.

You misunderstood me. The issue isn't whether Americans want to stay longer or not. Its just that they have the freedom to change jobs any time they like, something which H1-Bs do not have. For e.g if you are working in a job for a year and you find a nice job that pays 20% more, you would probably change over to the new company. An H1-B, particularly somebody locked into a multi-year green card process would not even think about it because it would mean having to start the whole long process again. This is what companies exploit and quite naturally. They know that H1-Bs are more likely to stay on even when they may have other options. They would also work harder as a precaution and would also be less likely to demand raises etc. Its just economics and has nothing to do with discrimination against Americans. The irony is that these restrictions placed on foreign H1-B workers actually end up hurting American workers. This is what usually happens when the free market is compromised. Note that immigrants with green cards do not have the same appeal to companies because they are free to move as well.

I can see why you are upset but it has nothing to do with any deliberate discrimination against Americans, it is all economic.
I am too backed up to write more but I will when I get a chance.

IT IS ILLEGAL TO HIRE H1B WORKERS WHEN THERE ARE AVAILABLE AND QUALIFIED AMERICAN WORKERS. THIS IS AN ABUSE OF THE H1B VISA WORKER PROGRAM.

CHEAP LABOR AND POWERLESS ENTRAPPED EMPLOYEES ARE OF COURSE JUST WHAT THE BIZ PEOPLE WANT. BUT TO SAY THIS IS JUST A MATTER OF ECONOMICS IS NOT TRUE. USING H1B WORKERS BECAUSE THEY ARE AFRAID TO ASK FOR A RAISE, CANT OR ARE AFRAID TO LEAVE, HAVE TO DO WHATEVER THE EMPLOYER WANTS, ARE TRAPPED, CANT STAND UP TO THE EMPLOYER OUT OF FEAR. WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE ARE RUNNING THESE COMPANIES?

IF THEY WANT FOREIGN WORKERS THEY SHOULD OPEN UP A COMPANY IN ANOTHER COUNTRY WHERE ABUSE IS ACCEPTABLE. HEY THEY COULD EVEN HIRE LITTLE KIDS AND MAKE THEM WORK FOR TEN HOURS A DAY AND JUST GIVE THEM A SANDWICH. THEN THEY WOULD REALLY BE MAKING THE MONEY.

OR HERE IS AN IDEA....WHY NOT JUST MAKE SLAVERY LEGAL AGAIN. BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT IS.

NO THIS IS NOT JUST A MATTER OF ECONOMICS. THIS IS CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR. FOR YOU TO CONDONE THIS AND TRY TO PASS IT OFF AS ACCEPTABLE OR UNDERSTANDABLE IS DISCUSTING TO SAY THE LEAST.

IF THEY CANT STAY IN BUSINESS HONESTLY THEN THEY ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO BE IN BUSINESS AT ALL. THE DISCRIMINATION AGAINST AMERICAN WORKERS IS CALCULATED AND DELIBERATE.

Originally Posted by redpony353

OR HERE IS AN IDEA....WHY NOT JUST MAKE SLAVERY LEGAL AGAIN. BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT IS.

Exactly. Why should the market be so inhibeted? Afterall, that is all America is about -- the marketplace. The God of the invisible hand rules everything in this nation. Why have child labor laws even? The market is being inhibited!!!! And why have trade regulation? The constitution clearly states that the government does not have that right. Oh, wait.........

IF THEY CANT STAY IN BUSINESS HONESTLY THEN THEY ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO BE IN BUSINESS AT ALL.

Yup....I wish these free trade-globalist-corporatists would extend some of their social Darwinian theories to businesses that can not compete within a sovereign republic's laws. They are inferior companies, and the herd must be thinned. Its not discrimination. Its just rule of law, nationhood, and sovereignty.