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  1. #51
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    2ndamendsis, our only option at this point (and not an unreasonable one) is to try to take what's on the table and improve it to an acceptable level. Sending emails to Pence calling him the antiChrist will achieve little, nor will challenging his patriotism or making suggestions that he is in someone's pocket. The best course of action is to bombard him with courteous letters and emails expressing our reservations about the viability of his plan as it currently exists and forumlating an alternative plan which we believe corrects as many of the deficiencies as possible. We can rave against his plan until we're blue in the face, but until we have a superior plan that is a viable option, and until we can gain some degree of support for that plan, we're just wasting our breath.

    I suggest that a meaningful project for ALIPAC would be to amend the Pence Plan to an acceptable form and then to apply pressure for supporters of Pence's plan to accept those modifications. This must be done in a spirit of compromise but from a strong position back by a few principles that are beyond compromise. If we can successfully string out the debate on the GOP plan while effectively blocking the ability of the Dems to pass an even worse amnesty plan, perhaps we can forestall any legislation until we get another crack at the ballot box in 2008. We need to start getting our ducks in a row so that we have a chance at getting an ally in the White House who could veto any amnesty provision. We also need to start getting our anti-amnesty Conservatives in a position to make a challenge in key Congressional races.

  2. #52
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    If we can successfully string out the debate on the GOP plan while effectively blocking the ability of the Dems to pass an even worse amnesty plan, perhaps we can forestall any legislation until we get another crack at the ballot box in 2008. We need to start getting our ducks in a row so that we have a chance at getting an ally in the White House who could veto any amnesty provision. We also need to start getting our anti-amnesty Conservatives in a position to make a challenge in key Congressional races.
    CROCKET
    very much in agreement with the above.

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  3. #53
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    PENCE PLAN

    It would be in everyone's best interest to read the document in order to understand ALL of the dangers that have been imbedded within it. We can collectively work with it only if we all understand it, imho.
    It's approx a 280 pg. PDF.

    Thanx to JP, several of us have it. If anyone wants a copy, I'd be glad to email it to you. {I have no idea how to get it up on Alipac}
    After some of us began downloading it, it disappeared from Pence's website.

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  4. #54
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    I'm not sure I agree with y'alls characterization of what any of this means. I have pause too about Pence being involved but I have yet to hear anything specific that says by Tancredo and King backing Pence means they are shifting to him rather then him to they? I have listened twice to this interview and maybe it isn't long enough for context but I still don't hear what you guys are inferring unless I am missing more of the puzzle? As a matter of fact MM is insinuating that Pence is putting principal first. Having said that I would still like a point blank question to both Tancredo and Pence about this very thing.


    Another score for the Laura Ingraham Show. Why would Tom Tancredo be working with a guy who once suppported Ellis Island centers for illegals? Because with a “massive amnesty bill” coming from the White House, the time for intraparty squabbling is over.

    Ignoring all my cautions about optimism as well as the hard lessons learned on election night, Mary K thinks Pence has a shot at winning:

    It sounds like the race for Leader will certainly be uphill, but he said he’s been getting positive reaction from folks on the Hill. Will they do the right thing and elect a change of leadership?

    I think, politically, they have to. Perception is reality in this case. I don’t even have a huge problem with Boehner. He stepped into what was already a bad situation when he became Majority Leader, but the fact remains that he is old leadership, and we need new leadership. And, given that we’ve got a competent, inspiring guy like Pence to provide it, I pray the Republicans will do the right thing. That does not, of course, mean they will.
    The interview is here:
    http://hotair.com/archives/2006/11/14/a ... -the-past/
    [b]Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.
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  5. #55
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    Excerpt:

    At the national party level, President Bush announced that Florida Sen. Mel Martinez is his choice to be the next chairman. Initially there was talk that Senate candidate and current Maryland Lt. Gov. Michael Steele was being considered for the position, but his opposition to some administration positions such as illegal immigration appear to have derailed such consideration.
    Hey folks, we have until January to stop this mistake from happening! Please, I encourage everyone to call, fax, email, and/or write your Republican representatives to express your displeasure at having pro-illegal immigrant advocate, Sen. Mel Martinez, as chairman of the RNC!

    Now, regarding Sen. Pence. Look, in an effort at compromise the man made a mistake. He has now admitted his plan is dead and it will no longer be pursued. Let's be honest, he has always been clear on his rejection of legalizing illegal immigrants while they are residing in the United States. I, as all of you, did not support or agree with the Pence/Hutchinson plan. The plan is now dead, it is no longer a concern. It's now time to forge ahead. Pence has made his stand on the issue quite clear - he does not support amnesty. Can't we accept the possibility that he, in an effort to offer a compromise bill, made a mistake? I don't know about the rest of you, but I've certainly made a few mistakes in my lifetime. Furthermore, I've been known to revise my opinions on certain issues as more information became avialable. Perhaps Pence is starting to catch on. I may be wrong, but I don't feel Pence is going to make the same mistake twice. Moreover, he is no longer operating as part of the offense (Republicans fumbled the ball to the Democrats). Sen. Pence's must now take his position on the defensive line and attempt to stop the Democrats from scoring an amnesty touchdown.

    If we continue to take everyone out of the game that slightly disagrees with us, we're not going to be left with much of a defense in the 4th quarter of play. IMHO, we need to concentrate more on the hard-line amnesty supporters such as Sen. Kennedy (D-MA), Sen. Durbin (D-OH), Sen. Specter (R-PA), Sen. McCain (R-AZ), Sen. Menendez (D-NJ), Sen. Martinez (R-FL), Rep. Pelosi (D-CA), Rep. Guiterrez (D-IL), Rep. Jackson (D-TX), etc. We have enough people that we 100% positively know want to pass amnesty to worry about - why waist our energy being cynical and degrading toward someone who basically, for the most part, supports our position? Trust me, when it's all said and done, we could do a lot worse than Sen. Pence. I honestly believe we must look at our current situation utilizing the "whole picture" concept. Please don't bother shooting the messenger here, I'm just being the devils advocate on this issue.

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" ** Edmund Burke**

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  6. #56
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    LOL, the "plan" is by no means dead, MW.

    No different than any other dangerous legislation, it gets spruced up and wrapped in different paper. The only reason why this travesty wasn't successful was the fact that many of us were experienced enough to cut them off at the pass with kennedy/mccain. Pence brought up the rear.

    Pence by no means admitted he was wrong. He simply has evaded answering any pertanent questions on the subject. No different than most politicos, he plays the game to perfection.

    Just as the FENCE that was never going to be built, the game is such that it is wise to understand that bluffing & manipulation of facts are the skills that win.

    Disinformation is the norm. That's a rule of the game.

    READ THE FILE........it will be in the next proposal whether it's in Pence's name or anothers.

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  7. #57
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    2ndamendsis,

    Obviously you simply refuse to give me credit for my ability to research, evaluate, and formulate at a well thought out conclusion. I'm beginning to think that there is no room for theories and opinions that may differ from your own, especially when they come from me.

    LOL, the "plan" is by no means dead, MW.

    No different than any other dangerous legislation, it gets spruced up and wrapped in different paper. The only reason why this travesty wasn't successful was the fact that many of us were experienced enough to cut them off at the pass with kennedy/mccain. Pence brought up the rear.
    Yes, the Pence/Hutchinson plan is officially dead (that's a good thing). The Senate didn't accept it the first time and they certainly won't accept a similiar plan now that control of the U.S. Senate and House has been turned over to the Democrats. Any thought that such a plan would fly now is not based on the reality of the current situation. If the U.S. Congress attempts to pass an amnesty bill in the future, you can expect it to look worse than S. 2611. Trust me, the Pence plan is a thing of the past. Besides that, all hope of even passing a bill dealing with the 12-25 million illegal immigrants currently residing in the United States in a manner that we would find acceptable is gone now (it went with the House). All we can do at this point is attempt to stop any comprehensive amnesty bill that may float down the pike. I just pray that the Democrats don't nickel and dime us to-death with bills such as the Dream Act or perhaps even slip in an agricultural guest worker program. I firmly believe Sen. Pence will stand against any path to legalization (amnesty)the Democrat controlled Senate or House may offer up. There have been no facts presented that would suggest otherwise.

    Pence by no means admitted he was wrong. He simply has evaded answering any pertanent questions on the subject. No different than most politicos, he plays the game to perfection.
    You've got to read between the lines and consider human nature. Of course he is not going to come right out and admit he was wrong, his ego won't allow it. He has said his plan is no longer a consideration and I tend to believe that. My belief is based on the changed climate we've been forced into. Yes, the climate has changed considerably since Nov. 7th.

    Just as the FENCE that was never going to be built, the game is such that it is wise to understand that bluffing & manipulation of facts are the skills that win.
    Look, none of us have a crystal ball or the ability to forsee the future. You don't know that the fence will never be built - all you have is an opinion based on rhetoric (mostly from the left). I'm not going to sit here and tell you it will be built, but I'm not going to say it won't either. One things for sure though, I'm not going to give up hope and I won't quit fighting for enhanced border security!

    Disinformation is the norm. That's a rule of the game.
    Duh......I know and understand that, but I refuse to go through life seeing a monster in every dark closet. Geez, if I was as pessimistic and cynical as the situation called for - I'd probably have a heart attack before my 48th birthday!

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" ** Edmund Burke**

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  8. #58
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    2ndamendsis,

    Obviously you simply refuse to give me credit for my ability to research, evaluate, and formulate at a well thought out conclusion. I'm beginning to think that there is no room for theories and opinions that may differ from your own, especially when they come from me.
    I stopped reading after this paragraph, MW.
    It's misleading so please don't put words in my mouth. This has nothing to do with you and everything to do with something that I believe in my heart and gut that is dangerous to our fight.
    As you know, we've agreed with each other on certain issues and we have disagreed on certain issues. I've posted to you in both instances. On the fence, kean and the above, I've disagreed with you.

    It sounds that you'd prefer that I kept quiet in my disagreement with your theories?

    On the "fence," I was correct, on kean, that is moot {on the surface but the kean machine has deep stakes in the NAU} and on Pence, he will show his hand soon. I pray I'm wrong. I do not believe I am.

    We wasted a lot of precious time with this fence travesty, imho. It was you who told me that I was being cynical. And now it's my opinion that if we were to put our confidence in Pence, when it's not been earned, we would, once again, be opening ourselves up to great disappointment and another set back. His actions - words are cheap!- have proven that he's an opportunist.

    The pence plan may be "dead" on the surface but it lives on, whether it be repackaged or split into multiple pieces of legislation. If Pence were so against AMNESTY by any name, he would never have produced such a damaging, all encompassing piece of legislation.
    A piece of legislation that would have, with the stroke of a pen, destroyed our country. Have you read it? I'll be glad to send it to you if you don't have it along with a case of barf bags. ** It's more than disgusting and any person that had the audacity to put their name to that piece of shit is never to be trusted! No person that cared about this country would have dared.

    Pence NEVER said {that I'm aware of} that he was against a GUEST WORKER W/A PATH TO CITIZENSHIP. In our experience, that's a red flag. He conveniently avoided answering those pertinent questions.

    We've got a very big fight ahead of us and need to march forward productively. We won't always agree and in many respects, that's a good thing.

    Now, back to work for me.

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