The Rebuke it thread

[Dagmar]

Ok I thought I'd start this thread for everyone to have a place where we can post ways to rebuke arguments like:
* they're just here to do what Americans won't
*we can't send them all back
*you're a racists if you support legal immigration

I was at a dinner party this weekend and my best friend of almost 20 years, has this annoying habit of implying that I am a racist because I do not think it is ok for people to be in this country illegally.

Another friend states that if you are against illegals then you don't realize that they are here for you're benefit and that they have much lower incidence of crime than the rest of the population.

So my response to them was this:
Being in this country illegally is a crime, therefore being in this country illegal is a crime for all of them.
Wanting people to abide by our laws is not racism, I then pointed out that they were being racist for assuming that all illegals are Hispanic. This of course made them reel in their seats but they couldn't argue.

As far as being here for our benefit: I said that if you are supporting them being here and working for substandard wages and benefits, you are essentially supporting greedy businessmen who are taking advantage of these poor people. In effect supporting a modern day slavery.

[PhredE]

Dagmar:

I'm sure others will chime in here on this one as well.

But, here's my quick answer:

Let your answer be a set of pointed questions on the topic. I use these when I am in a similar situation:

1. So is there 'good' law breaking and 'bad' law breaking? And, if so, what is the difference? Who gets to determine which is which? Can I break a law so long as it is 'good' law breaking?

2. Are they aware that the US 'official' unemployment rate is approx. 4.5% and that illegals comprise about 4.9-5.0% of the US workforce?
(eg. it's almost a 1:1 replacement of US workers - for every job that an illegal has, there is a US worker available to do that same job).
How do US citizens that have historically been shut out or underemployed in the US labor market feel about having large groups of non-citizens working (illegally) in jobs that *could be* filled by them?

3. Why is racism brought into the discussion when 'Mexicans' or 'Latinos' don't share one unvarying ethnic background - eg. what does a Mexican look like? (Salma Hayek, Juan Hernandez, Vincente Fox, Felipe Calderon?)
Or, conversely, so we should let large numbers of people breaks our laws so long as they come from the 'right' place? Or that they look the 'right' way? I don't buy it, and neither do most Americans I know.
And, almost forgot... how are ethnic minorities treated in places like Mexico? (The answer may surprise some)

4. Re: They're doing the jobs Americans can't or won't do...
Then why do Americans still comprise a majority of workers in all of the industries where illegals have a large representation (with one notable exception being agriculture)?

5. Re: We can't send them all back...
No one is really suggesting that. Enforcement using attrition - by enforcement of border security combined with serious and ongoing employer sanctions, interior enforcement will, over time, make it increasingly difficult to remain in the US and economically benefit by the illegal entry/work here. Also, during the Eisenhower administration, there was a concerted effort to repatriate over 1 million illegals and people then also said the same - 'it can't be done', etc. Not only did that happen, it was done in a relatively short time frame as well.

6. Re: The presence of the illegal is a 'benefit' to 'us'...
My reply: To whom? How?
Actually, in reality the costs of supporting illegals are forced onto the public through social, educational and health costs - eg. it is 'publicized', while the so-called 'benefits' are exclusively retained by the private employer (eg. are 'privatized'). They are private benefits, not public ones.
Better yet, try to convince the victims of crimes (perpetrated by illegals) of this...

7. Ask them if they know how many illegals are in the country, how many of those are working/have jobs, how many of those are visa overstays, former students, overstayed tourists visas, etc. - it is usually an eye-opening discussion for the not-yet-clued-in folks.

HTH

[Hylander_1314]

Don't forget to remind them, that those same greedy business people won't be happy until they themselves toil under the yoke of bondage, along with their wives and children. No matter what race or color they are.

1 Ask them, are they willing to wait until their livelihoods are threatened? (Use the old, when they came for the Jews I said nothing. When they came for he Socialists, I said nothing. When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing, until finally when they came for me, there was nobody left to speak up).

2 Ask them if they agree that their children should have to slave away at a job that barely supports them for 12 to 16 hours a day?

3 Ask them if they realise that poverty knows no boundaries where greed is the guiding factor.

4 Ask them, if they are willing to give up their Liberty, for a little "temporary" safety?

See what kind of discussion that starts. I usually get into heated arguements over these topics, but I'm quite passionate about these issues.

[sippy]

Dag, no problem there.

For the phrase, "Illegals are doing jobs Americans won't do." Just add in "for the wages that illegals are being paid."

For the racism clause, remind them of the actual definition of racism, and ask them to provide documentation which states that illegal immigrants are now classified as their own race.
I've had huge success with this one. This stops any puke liberal arguments in their tracks!

As far as the statement of "We can't send them all back.", have them refer to president Eisenhower's term in the 50's where we managed to ship back over 3 million illegals. Now consider our transportation system as compared to the 50's.

My personal favorite, "They contribute to the economy."
Ask them how they do they contribute? Illegals do NOT PAY state and federal income taxes. If they are paying taxes, it's likely they have forged documentation. They are only paying sales tax, which does not replenish the deficite they create by draining tax payer funded services.

Here's some good links to the BS argument about how our economy would collapse, and the fact that our fresh produce prices would skyrocket if the Ag business had to pay LIVEABLE wages.

One more thing to add to this, the Ag visas do not have a limit. Farmers and Ag businesses could get as many of these visas as they want. The catch is, the employer would then be responsible for their immigrant worker healthcare, housing, etc. which is why they don't use these visas legally. They want the bulk of illegal's expenses to be the burden of the American taxpayer.

http://www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=9380

http://www.therationalradical.com/docum ... orkers.htm

[TaxPayingFool]

I'm only mad at one thing. Our government. For allowing it to happen and doing nothing about it. The government is no longer an embodiment of the people for the people, but a big bloated business. Fix that and you will fix everything.

[PhredE]

Hi there TaxPayingFool.

Welcome aboard!

I think most everyone agrees here, that the government is the root of this (illegal immigration) and many of our other problems. It is true, the government no longer represents the majority of average voters, but is a puppet (muppet?) for big business and special interest lobbies.

Feel free to pose any questions you may have.

Enjoy.

[Dagmar]

but is a puppet (muppet?) for big business and special interest lobbies.
Enjoy.

LOL!! Does anyone else here the "mena mena" song?


Welcome aboard TaxPayingFool.

[April]

PhredE wrote:

I think most everyone agrees here, that the government is the root of this (illegal immigration) and many of our other problems. It is true, the government no longer represents the majority of average voters, but is a puppet (muppet?) for big business and special interest lobbies.

That is WE the people have to take the bull by the horns and stop this insanity! Our govenment has run over us long enough!Time for them to realize we put em in office and we can take em out. We need GOOD not GREEDY men representing Americans.

[TaxPayingFool]

PhredE wrote:

I think most everyone agrees here, that the government is the root of this (illegal immigration) and many of our other problems. It is true, the government no longer represents the majority of average voters, but is a puppet (muppet?) for big business and special interest lobbies.

That is WE the people have to take the bull by the horns and stop this insanity! Our govenment has run over us long enough!Time for them to realize we put em in office and we can take em out. We need GOOD not GREEDY men representing Americans.

how do you propose that get done? You can not get people to agree that it is bad to burn down your own house...well maybe 50%. Leaving a stalemate. That is what our government want too... divide and con core.

[BearFlagRepublic]

Thanx for the thread Dagmar. I love to shoot down the lies told by liberals and globalists......LOL I am listening to John and Ken at the Rally and Duncan Hunter just adressed "Jobs Americans won't do" as I type!

* they're just here to do what Americans won't

There is no job in the entire economy that Americans don't make up the vast majority of--According to a Pew Hispanic Center study, using Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Illegals take WAGES that Americans won't take--thereby putting wage pressure on working Americans. The average American born male loses $1,700 a year because of wage depression brought upon by illegal immigrants--according to Harvard economist George Borjas, the most respected name on the subject.

*we can't send them all back

We don't need to--only send the criminals back. We just need to enforce existing immigration laws--punish employers hiring illegals. We need to deny social services to illegals, and housing, and they will self-deport.

*you're a racists if you support legal immigration

If this is so, then every country on the planet is full of racists.