Thread: Republicans Just walked out of the House!!

Originally Posted by MW

loservillelaber wrote:

You and I usually agree. But, it's time for you to do the body count of American victims of the illegal invasion. Now how's it look?

I'm sorry, but wiretapping has nothing to do with illegal immigration per say. It's a sad day when the most powerful nation in the world can't wage a war on illegal immigration and war on terrorism simultaneously. It wasn't "boogymen" that engineered the bombings of the USS Cole, WTC, American hotels in Amman, Jordan, Pan Am flight 103, La Belle discotheque, etc.

[quote:uk92ubis]Terrorist Acts Suspected of or Inspired by al-Qaeda

1993 (Feb.): Bombing of World Trade Center (WTC); 6 killed.

1993 (Oct.): Killing of U.S. soldiers in Somalia.

1996 (June): Truck bombing at Khobar Towers barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killed 19 Americans.

1998 (Aug.): Bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; 224 killed, including 12 Americans.

1999 (Dec.): Plot to bomb millennium celebrations in Seattle foiled when customs agents arrest an Algerian smuggling explosives into the U.S.

2000 (Oct.): Bombing of the USS Cole in port in Yemen; 17 U.S. sailors killed.

2001 (Sept.): Destruction of WTC; attack on Pentagon. Total dead 2,992.

2001 (Dec.): Man tried to denote shoe bomb on flight from Paris to Miami.

2002 (April): Explosion at historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, including 11 German tourists.

2002 (May): Car exploded outside hotel in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 14, including 11 French citizens.

2002 (June): Bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.

2002 (Oct.): Boat crashed into oil tanker off Yemen coast, killing 1.

2002 (Oct.): Nightclub bombings in Bali, Indonesia, killed 202, mostly Australian citizens.

2002 (Nov.): Suicide attack on a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, killed 16.

2003 (May): Suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

2003 (May): 4 bombs killed 33 people targeting Jewish, Spanish, and Belgian sites in Casablanca, Morocco.

2003 (Aug.): Suicide car-bomb killed 12, injured 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.

2003 (Nov.): Explosions rocked a Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, housing compound, killing 17.

2003 (Nov.): Suicide car-bombers simultaneously attacked 2 synagogues in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 25 and injuring hundreds.

2003 (Nov.): Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 26.

2004 (March): 10 bombs on 4 trains exploded almost simultaneously during the morning rush hour in Madrid, Spain, killing 191 and injuring more than 1,500.

2004 (May): Terrorists attacked Saudi oil company offices in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, killing 22.

2004 (June): Terrorists kidnapped and executed American Paul Johnson, Jr., in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

2004 (Sept.): Car bomb outside the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia, killed 9.

2004 (Dec.): Terrorists entered the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 9 (including 4 attackers).

2005 (July): Bombs exploded on 3 trains and a bus in London, England, killing 52.

2005 (Oct.): 22 killed by 3 suicide bombs in Bali, Indonesia.

2005 (Nov.): 57 killed at 3 American hotels in Amman, Jordan.

2006 (Jan.): Two suicide bombers carrying police badges blow themselves up near a celebration at the Police Academy in Baghdad, killing nearly 20 police officers. Al-Qaeda in Iraq takes responsibility.

2006 (Aug.): Police arrest 24 British-born Muslims, most of whom have ties to Pakistan, who had allegedly plotted to blow up as many as 10 planes using liquid explosives. Officials say details of the plan were similar to other schemes devised by al-Qaeda.

2007 (April): Suicide bombers attack a government building in Algeria's capital, Algiers, killing 35 and wounding hundreds more. Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb claims responsibility.

2007 (April): Eight people, including two Iraqi legislators, die when a suicide bomber strikes inside the Parliament building in Baghdad. An organization that includes al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia claims responsibility. In another attack, the Sarafiya Bridge that spans the Tigris River is destroyed.

2007 (June): British police find car bombs in two vehicles in London. The attackers reportedly tried to detonate the bombs using cell phones but failed. Government officials say al-Qaeda is linked to the attempted attack. The following day, an SUV carrying bombs bursts into flames after it slams into an entrance to Glasgow Airport. Officials say the attacks are connected.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884893.html

I think you took my response to Ratbstard out of context. I'm not arguing against the failure of our government to stop illegal immigration. I know full well the damage caused to our country by open borders and illegal immigrants. Of course you knew that . However, to paint terrorist as "boogymen" doesn't quite sit right with me. The list of terrorist acts I provided above that have been credited to al-Qaeda should prove that terrorist organizations shouldn't be considered boogymen (al-Qaeda is real). These aren't invisible fictional characters that hide in our closets or under our beds. IMHO, wiretapping is a tool that can be utilized to uncover future plots against American citizens.

Here's the portion of Ratbstard's post that forced my response:

Terrorists/Terrorism is a boogyman that can never be defeated and used at will by any government desiring to control its people. IMO

IMHO, wiretapping has absolutely nothing to do with controlling us, nor is it a "boogyman" argument. Like I said above, it's a tool used to reveal terrorist and their future activities. [/quote:uk92ubis]

I don't know..........

There were fears at one time that Bush was using the wire tapping priviledges to listen in on newspaper reporters, to find out who their anonymous sources were in regard to reporting on the war--and everything else being negatively reported on in regard to Bush, Chaney, etc.!!! There were fears as well that they were using this to listen in on calls of political opponents!!

Now that they have reports that the terrorists are using a combination of throwaway cell phones and the internet to communicate-----are all internet commucations soon to be tapped into as well??

Also, as has been brought up numerous times.........Wouldn't the need for the wiretapping due to concerns for our national security be more believable if the borders and ports were closed/secured----and our immigration laws were enforced----so that they knew who was in our country and for what purposes???

Dolly wrote:

There were fears at one time that Bush was using the wire tapping priviledges to listen in on newspaper reporters, to find out who their anonymous sources were in regard to reporting on the war--and everything else being negatively reported on in regard to Bush, Chaney, etc.!!! There were fears as well that they were using this to listen in on calls of political opponents!!

Do you have any proof or is this just rumor and speculation?

Now that they have reports that the terrorists are using a combination of throwaway cell phones and the internet to communicate-----are all internet commucations soon to be tapped into as well??

How do you no they aren't?

Also, as has been brought up numerous times.........Wouldn't the need for the wiretapping due to concerns for our national security be more believable if the borders and ports were closed/secured----and our immigration laws were enforced----so that they knew who was in our country and for what purposes???

Of course it would, but as you know, mainstream media, big business, and special interest groups seem to shape and control much of the border security and illegal immigration argument. That's unfortunate and needs to change.

Just because I support wiretapping foreign communications to and from terrorist supporting countries doesn't mean I support illegal immigration and open borders. That isn't what some folks are implying is it?

Originally Posted by MW

Dolly wrote:

There were fears at one time that Bush was using the wire tapping priviledges to listen in on newspaper reporters, to find out who their anonymous sources were in regard to reporting on the war--and everything else being negatively reported on in regard to Bush, Chaney, etc.!!! There were fears as well that they were using this to listen in on calls of political opponents!!

Do you have any proof or is this just rumor and speculation?

[quote:63t692g3]Now that they have reports that the terrorists are using a combination of throwaway cell phones and the internet to communicate-----are all internet commucations soon to be tapped into as well??

How do you no they aren't?

Also, as has been brought up numerous times.........Wouldn't the need for the wiretapping due to concerns for our national security be more believable if the borders and ports were closed/secured----and our immigration laws were enforced----so that they knew who was in our country and for what purposes???

Of course it would, but as you know, mainstream media, big business, and special interest groups seem to shape and control much of the border security and illegal immigration argument. That's unfortunate and needs to change.

Just because I support wiretapping foreign communications to and from terrorist supporting countries doesn't mean I support illegal immigration and open borders. That isn't what some folks are implying is it? [/quote:63t692g3]

In regard to proof and speculation----it was a report on CNN about 2 years ago. I did not keep following it to know if it was determined to be true or not.

No, I am not saying that because someone supports wiretapping that they support illegals and open borders. I am saying.......What sense is there in using/supporting wire tapping----when obviously our government and Dept of Homeland Security does not feel that the risk to citizens and our country is that serious----as they refuse to close/secure the borders and enforce our immigration laws.

Originally Posted by GOrwell

I hope the dems dont bend on this one, FISA is a horrible bill. Tramples all over our rights. Shame on the republicans for supporting this bill.


BTW, the patriot act has been found to be unconstitutional in all 5 cases that have reached a judge, including 3 judges that where appointed by Bush 1 and 2.

FISA spies on foreigners whose phone calls are routed through utilities in the US. What's so wrong with that?

Originally Posted by MW

Ratbstard wrote:

Terrorists/Terrorism is a boogyman that can never be defeated and used at will by any government desiring to control its people.

I strongly disagree! How can you say that knowing full well that there have been numerous terrorist acts perpetrated on thousands of innocent civilians over the last 10 years? Terrorism needs to be dealt with accordingly, not ignored. We live in dangerous times, and burying our heads in the sand isn't going to make the bad guys go away.

You fight against the GROUP not the strategy and terrorism is JUST a strategy. Just as I believe the answer to gun violence should not be taking away the American Peoples right to bear arms I also believe that the taking away of any other American rights, Constitutional Rights, is NOT the answer to the threat of terrorism.

Ratbstard,
How does FISA deprive Americans of their rights?

Check out Keith Olbermann's commentary on this. Hold onto your seats:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NGPwXYAmZzQ

Anna-Anna wrote:

Check out Keith Olbermann's commentary on this. Hold onto your seats:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NGPwXYAmZzQ

Liberal media bias at its finest.

Originally Posted by alisab

I want my country and family protected. I don't see a BIG concern about this . . if you have nothing to hide why should it bother anyone unless the government uses it in an illegal way. It should totally be used for any terrorist type situation and nothing else.

Like it was mentioned before, if they were really interested in protecting this country from terrorists, they would not leave our ports and borders open so that just anyone can come into this country. Just because you don't have anything to hide doesn't excuse the right to invade your privacy. This admisntration has proven over and over they have no regard for the Consitution. You really want to trust them not to abuse this power? If you give anyone with power and inch they will take ten miles. It isn't to protect us, it is to control us.

Originally Posted by Populist

At this point, I want more of this partisan fighting, to make it harder for there to be cooperation for amnesty legislation.

Yes, I hope it opens some wounds that cannot be easily healed with a tincture of picante and serrano.

FISA was a James Earl Carter signed act, sort of a Watergate "imperial presidency revenge tool." FISA's probable cause statement sometimes inhibits warrants and other times grants far too many broad investigative powers that exist outside of oversight. The barometer for me is that it has done nothing to help prevent terrorism. Bush simply ignored it and proved that it does not have the teeth it was proclaimed to have. This was done under an emergency situation to monitor Al Queada right after 9-11, a move I think was justified constitutionally.

The crux of the issue is the potential (and known) misuse of executive power. It is in fact the responsibility of the government to protect its citizens at all costs, yet it has proven in the case of illegal immigration that percieved business interests and grand agendas trump this in their minds. The Federal Government only lives up to its obligations when it decides to and has shown they are not governed by the constitution, they are cosmopolitan law followers. So the existence of FISA is a moot point really. Whether or not it is in existence, it appears our out of control federal government will continue to do as they please in any event. I say get rid of it.

The main hypocrisy here is that they are clamoring for it as a means to safety and security, yet they can't secure our border? Security isn't a cosmopolitan exercise, it is a zero sum game. I am for ramming a rapier deep into the pigs chest. Since they have proven they could care less about us, I say we take away their tool for corporate spying.