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Thread: Trump Says Same-Sex Marriage Is Settled Law, Abortion Isnít

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  1. #51
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontereySherry View Post
    I never once said anything about pulling in the force of government. But I think I am entitled to express my opinions. The woman's movement and Roe vs Rae was about a lot more than abortion. A woman having rights about her body is about more than abortion. I know I lived it. There was a time when men had the final say on birth control. Woman were dying for having birth complications and having too many births, but the husband wishes were all that counted. A man could beat his wife causing her to have to have a hysterotomy abortion and then turn around and beat her for losing the baby. A man could hold a gun to his wife's head and rape her, only to be told their is no such thing as rape. A woman's body belonged to her husband and we had no say or rights.

    I know what it feels like to live in fear and to be told that as a woman I had no rights. I fought the fight, I looked down the barrel of the gun and yes it is very personal to me. I understand the bigger picture, I understand what the "a woman should have the right to make decisions over her own body" means. You or no one is going to lecture me about my views or decency or call me a barbarian.
    Thank you so much for clearing that up, MontereySherry. I thought when you said the woman's, the man's and the unborn's position should all count that you meant the decision should not be the woman's, but some group think involving men, and that my view that it should only be the girl or woman's position that should count was the coldest thing you'd ever heard.

    I call the whole idea of government forcing pregnant girls and women into childbirth against their will through the force of law Barbarism which would of course apply to anyone who supports that. I've posted that term numerous times, so please don't take it personally, and I won't take your calling me "cold" personally.

    Last edited by Judy; 11-15-2016 at 06:23 PM.
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  2. #52
    MW
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    Your right it's not the same. The pain a woman feels is much worse and goes on for hours. Not all girls and women move on. Hundreds die in the process or from related complications every year, and most of these are black girls and women, and those who don't die face the struggles and hardships of having an unwanted pregnancy carried to term. The total disregard you have for these girls and women is astounding.

    The late term abortion which I think is after 26 weeks is the result of many factors, and is a small percentage of the total number of abortions each year. What it boils down to is whose rights and life matters and I stand with the girls and women who for whatever reason have found themselves in a situation where they are facing an unwanted pregnancy they want to terminate, and it should be as it is now, her decision and her decision alone. The earlier it is terminated the better and safer for her, but there are reasons the timing doesn't work out for an earlier procedure. In those instances, she should not be put at risk because of the timing.

    There is nothing "disturbing" about it for you. What someone else does with regards to abortion procedures has nothing to do with you or me or anyone else, but the girl or woman involved. It's her life and her decision, or at least it should be in my opinion, because it's none of our business. What she decides to or when she decides to do it, has nothing to do with us, nothing at all, so it seems to me that whether you approve or don't approve is irrelevant and thus no laws should be passed that would force her into childbirth against her will.
    Making up your own facts to create a narrative that fits a personal agenda is not helpful in this discussion. You have absolutely no idea how much pain a baby of 5-9 months feels when having its life terminated through a medical procedure. To say the baby feels less pain than the mother is your opinion. There are no medical facts to back up such a claim.

    Anything after 20 weeks is considered a late-term abortion, not 26 weeks. Furthermore, even if the percentage of abortions after 20 weeks is less than those done in the first 5 months, it doesn't mean that number is small or insignificant. Please refer back to an earlier post I made concerning this issue.

    We're not talking about going to the store to get a loaf of bread or deciding when to take a shower here. We're talking about terminating a life. I'm of the opinion that several factors need to be considered when making such a determination. Additionally, let's not forget that there are options available that would preserve the life of the baby. To my knowledge newborn babies are difficult to find for those looking to adopt in the United States. We should be looking at all options to preserve life, not end it. After all, we're not living in a 3rd world country.

    Moreover, your argument completely ignores the responsibility of the future mother. If she was determined to end end her pregnancy through abortion, shouldn't she have made that decision prior to the 6 month mark? I realize there may be exceptions, but most women know well before the 6 month point that they're pregnant. A relationship change with the baby's sire is not a good enough reason to abort a 7 month old baby (IMO), nor is the changing of ones mind just because of inconvenience. There are consequences to participating in unprotected sexual relations and those doing so should accept responsibility. If an abortion must happen, let it happen as early as possible, not after 20 weeks (late-term abortion).

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  3. #53
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    I think under the law, it's still 26 weeks. Some states have tried to change that to 20 weeks, but those state laws violate the 26 week Roe V Wade US Supreme Court Decision.

    The issue is whether someone like you should be allowed under the law with the power of the government to force a pregnant girl or woman into childbirth against her will in the United States.

    My opinion is a resounding no.

    If you love babies and life and want to help children, there are millions of babies and children for you to love and help in the United States. They live in black ghettos and Appalachia and all over the United States. One in four children in the United States live in poverty, so maybe you can fill the void in your life by figuring out some way to love and help them.

    Maybe the Knights of Columbus who did the poll you cite could redirect their money and energy into helping them as well. Maybe the Catholic Church could refocus its grand wealth to helping them. Maybe the Southern Baptists could do more and all the pro-life religions could do more to help the living. It would be interesting to see how much they've spent on their Pro-Life Movement over the past 40 plus years to attack the rights of pregnant girls and women to what they have actually done for living children in the United States. Based on the cost of our welfare programs paid for by taxpayers, it appears they've done very little.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MW View Post
    Making up your own facts to create a narrative that fits a personal agenda is not helpful in this discussion. You have absolutely no idea how much pain a baby of 5-9 months feels when having its life terminated through a medical procedure. To say the baby feels less pain than the mother is your opinion. There are no medical facts to back up such a claim.


    Anything after 20 weeks is considered a late-term abortion, not 26 weeks. Furthermore, even if the percentage of abortions after 20 weeks is less than those done in the first 5 months, it doesn't mean that number is small or insignificant. Please refer back to an earlier post I made concerning this issue.


    We're not talking about going to the store to get a loaf of bread or deciding when to take a shower here. We're talking about terminating a life. I'm of the opinion that several factors need to be considered when making such a determination. Additionally, let's not forget that there are options available that would preserve the life of the baby. To my knowledge newborn babies are difficult to find for those looking to adopt in the United States. We should be looking at all options to preserve life, not end it. After all, we're not living in a 3rd world country.


    Moreover, your argument completely ignores the responsibility of the future mother. If she was determined to end end her pregnancy through abortion, shouldn't she have made that decision prior to the 6 month mark? I realize there may be exceptions, but most women know well before the 6 month point that they're pregnant. A relationship change with the baby's sire is not a good enough reason to abort a 7 month old baby (IMO), nor is the changing of ones mind just because of inconvenience. There are consequences to participating in unprotected sexual relations and those doing so should accept responsibility. If an abortion must happen, let it happen as early as possible, not after 20 weeks (late-term abortion).
    Making up facts is what you are doing in constantly posing the contents of a woman's uterus, a fetus, as a baby. You think just talking about a fetus as if it were a baby, it somehow actually becomes a baby. The anti-abortionists such as yourself cannot be trusted to report scientific facts when you will not even apply the right language to what you are talking about. This is even more dishonest then just lying.

    You are just sustaining a narrative, you are not reporting facts. You do not even care about facts. The simplest fact of the matter here is that when a woman is pregnant, the only life that matters here is the life of the woman. Without the life of the woman, there is no gestation. No woman, no pregancy. The woman is the host of the growth that takes a single cell to a fetus mature enough to sustain life as an infant. At which point she undergoes labor to expell the growth that she contained in her body, sustaining it with her blood, her oxygen and the nutrients of her body. When the fetus becomes mature enough, then dramatic changes occur in the fetus and the pregnant woman and this triggers labor. It also triggers the awakening of the fetus which completes after it is born and begins breathing on its own. The mind of a fetus does not function like a conscious being, there is not enough oxygen available to it to sustain a conscious mind. An infant, now born, now breathing on its own is a conscious being and not before.

    The neurology of gestating organisms is one of things independent of the host female. There is no direct link between the woman's neurology and that of the gestating organism. But it only functions in the most elementary way, the development of a personality or consciousness would just get in the way at this point. The idea that somehow you can form a relationship with something even as well developed as a late fetus is false and has no scientific basis. It is all reflexes and regulation at this point.

    Responsible child bearing starts with being willing to concede that there are always circumstances that suggest terminating the pregnancy at any time. The first person to consider in such a decision is the woman bearing the pregnancy herself. Her pregnancy is not a person and is of no consideration in such a decision.
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  5. #55
    Senior Member MontereySherry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkskyali View Post
    Making up facts is what you are doing in constantly posing the contents of a woman's uterus, a fetus, as a baby. You think just talking about a fetus as if it were a baby, it somehow actually becomes a baby. The anti-abortionists such as yourself cannot be trusted to report scientific facts when you will not even apply the right language to what you are talking about. This is even more dishonest then just lying.

    You are just sustaining a narrative, you are not reporting facts. You do not even care about facts. The simplest fact of the matter here is that when a woman is pregnant, the only life that matters here is the life of the woman. Without the life of the woman, there is no gestation. No woman, no pregancy. The woman is the host of the growth that takes a single cell to a fetus mature enough to sustain life as an infant. At which point she undergoes labor to expell the growth that she contained in her body, sustaining it with her blood, her oxygen and the nutrients of her body. When the fetus becomes mature enough, then dramatic changes occur in the fetus and the pregnant woman and this triggers labor. It also triggers the awakening of the fetus which completes after it is born and begins breathing on its own. The mind of a fetus does not function like a conscious being, there is not enough oxygen available to it to sustain a conscious mind. An infant, now born, now breathing on its own is a conscious being and not before.

    The neurology of gestating organisms is one of things independent of the host female. There is no direct link between the woman's neurology and that of the gestating organism. But it only functions in the most elementary way, the development of a personality or consciousness would just get in the way at this point. The idea that somehow you can form a relationship with something even as well developed as a late fetus is false and has no scientific basis. It is all reflexes and regulation at this point.

    Responsible child bearing starts with being willing to concede that there are always circumstances that suggest terminating the pregnancy at any time. The first person to consider in such a decision is the woman bearing the pregnancy herself. Her pregnancy is not a person and is of no consideration in such a decision.
    If you really want the facts, them I will give you the facts from a woman that has had a late term abortion to save my life. Not once did I think of the child I was carrying as a unborn fetus. I knew that child I was carrying was a living human being, a part of me and as a mother, I did everything I could do to save his life.

    You are right that doctors think first of the mother. They had all the arguments for my aborting my baby. They bring up the others that your decision affects. Your family, your husband and children and they even will tell you your baby is in pain and suffering. I could not choose to kill the child inside me, so they did against my wishes.

    After my operation, I asked questions and they would not answer me. They would not even tell me the sex of the child. It took me six months and another doctor to find out my answers and why they wouldn't answer. They thought if I did not know anything about the baby it would be easier for me to accept the loss. I actually think that is why we keep hearing the term unborn fetus. If we do not think of the unborn baby as a living human being that can feel pain, then it is easier to dispose of them.

    Scientific or not those are the true facts.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Judy's Avatar
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    The medical terms for development to birth are zygote, embryo, and fetus (10 weeks to birth).
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  7. #57
    Senior Member MontereySherry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judy View Post
    The medical terms for development to birth are zygote, embryo, and fetus (10 weeks to birth).
    Yes that is medical terms, but I guarantee that people in the medical field while talking to patients will refer to the fetus as a baby. Examples: "Have you felt your baby move, Your baby is doing great, Would you like to see a sonogram of your baby, Your baby is in distress, etc.

    There is no right or wrong answer. I was only sharing in the hopes of creating understanding. Too many times we only see things as black or white and do not realize there is a grey area.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MontereySherry View Post
    If you really want the facts, them I will give you the facts from a woman that has had a late term abortion to save my life. Not once did I think of the child I was carrying as a unborn fetus. I knew that child I was carrying was a living human being, a part of me and as a mother, I did everything I could do to save his life.

    You are right that doctors think first of the mother. They had all the arguments for my aborting my baby. They bring up the others that your decision affects. Your family, your husband and children and they even will tell you your baby is in pain and suffering. I could not choose to kill the child inside me, so they did against my wishes.

    After my operation, I asked questions and they would not answer me. They would not even tell me the sex of the child. It took me six months and another doctor to find out my answers and why they wouldn't answer. They thought if I did not know anything about the baby it would be easier for me to accept the loss. I actually think that is why we keep hearing the term unborn fetus. If we do not think of the unborn baby as a living human being that can feel pain, then it is easier to dispose of them.

    Scientific or not those are the true facts.
    When you say that you are giving "the facts from a woman that has had a late term abortion to save my life", who are you talking about, yourself or somebody else? It is rather hard to tell if you are quoting somebody or citing your own experience. You should make it perfectly clear. Are you talking about being pregnant yourself, or are you talking about somebody else?

    Quote Originally Posted by MontereySherry View Post
    Yes that is medical terms, but I guarantee that people in the medical field while talking to patients will refer to the fetus as a baby. Examples: "Have you felt your baby move, Your baby is doing great, Would you like to see a sonogram of your baby, Your baby is in distress, etc.

    There is no right or wrong answer. I was only sharing in the hopes of creating understanding. Too many times we only see things as black or white and do not realize there is a grey area.
    A woman can have any kind of opinion she wants about what is going on inside her. She can believe whatever she wants and a good doctor will always speak to any patient so as to be sensitive as to what the patient's beliefs and values are so that the patient can deal with their situation with the best internal resources available to the patient.

    A doctor who constantly speaks above their patient using medical terms unfamiliar to the patient has a poor "bedside manner". But a doctor who actually insisted that what the patient was carrying inside was, in fact, medically a baby, would have to be lying or too ignorant to be practicing obstetrics.

    For serious discussion such as this, nothing less than proper language will do. Medicine is not even really the subject here, it is embryology and scientific knowledge about gestation.
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  9. #59
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    Another difference between the the use of terms is whether the pregnancy is wanted or unwanted. If a girl or woman is pregnant who wants to be they usually refer to "having a baby". If a girl or woman is pregnant and doesn't want to be and experiencing an unwanted pregnancy, they aren't connected to it, they want "it" out and gone.
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