Thread: WHERE AND WHEN DID WE LOSE CONTROL....

Originally Posted by hardlineconstitutionalist

We were trying to figure out what a car or house would end up costing without all the tax all along the line. a fair tax is an oxymoron but I really hope your plan takes hold.

A new house would cost about 41% less on the house itself and whatever the capital gains tax was that was paid on the lot which right now is 15% but in past years has been as high as 28% which is considerable savings. Then when the new house is sold, the buyer pays a pay 23% FairTax on the house at the time of purchase which is just part of the price and rolled into the mortgage. So you save around 17% plus the capital gains tax savings on the land.

If you buy an existing house, one that is not new construction, then that's a used house and exempt from the FairTax. Same with a car. Sellers of new cars collect the FairTax, sellers of used cars don't, because used cars are exempt. All used items from a house to a car to second hand clothes to used equipment or appliances are exempt from the FairTax. The FairTax is only charged on new products and services.

Thank you, hardlineconstitutionalist. I hope the message about the FairTax can get out across the country so people can study it, learn about it, ask questions, and if they like it have the opportunity to contact their political candidates and public officials and demand passage. What a remarkable and wonderful thing this will be for our country as soon as we can get the people up to speed on it.

FairTax legislation is HB 25 in the US House of Representatives and SB 296 in the US Senate. There are 61 Congressional Sponsors, all but 1 dear Democrat from Oklahoma, are Republicans.

This is how important it is that we vote for FairTax candidates.

1. The FairTax helps stop illegal immigration

2. The FairTax helps protect our trade

3. The FairTax jump starts the economy

4. The FairTax protects American Jobs for American Workers

5. The FairTax encourages redevelopment, restoration and recycling that helps preserve our natural resources and improve our older neighborhoods and ghettos.

6. The FairTax restores liberty and prosperity to our people because they go home with all the money they worked for and earned and then decide what they'll do with it as it should be, because it's their money.

7. The FairTax reduces the size of government by eliminating the IRS as well as reducing the number of people on entitlements by increasing their net expendable income.

8. The FairTax removes the intrusiveness and invasion of the federal government into our lives and businesses because no longer will you report to the US government on anything. Retail businesses report only their gross sales receipts just like they do now for state sales taxes.

9. The FairTax puts the American People back in control of their government because now the American People control the purse strings. If we're not happy, then we don't spend, if we don't spend, the government doesn't get any money. If we're happy, we spend and the government gets paid at the end of the production and sales cycle like everyone else.

If a political candidate doesn't support the FairTax, then it means one thing, they were too out of touch to know about it, too lazy to read and study it, or they are part of the problem and not the solution and just more of the same who want to steal our liberty and sell off our prosperity.

For me, it's that black and white, that cut and dried.

www.fairtax.org

Spread the Word!

Originally Posted by Hylander_1314

Originally Posted by hardlineconstitutionalist

We were trying to figure out what a car or house would end up costing without all the tax all along the line. a fair tax is an oxymoron but I really hope your plan takes hold.

Until we have real money again in the form of gold and silver coin, it is a moot point. But just give it some scope, as 2007, the dollar was only worth .04 cents, and that is rather arbitrary, as the value I'm sure you are aware is thought up out of thin air, and is dependent upon how many fiat notes are in circulation.

But as I said to give it some scope, it took $21.60 in 2007 to equal a real silver 1913 dollar. So a place like my Uncle's that cost him 75k, would have in real dollars only been about $3,500.00. Now if all the stupid taxes could be removed, his cost would have been around $3,300.00. So with lets say a 3% "fairtax" (which I am not thrilled with, until we get things back on an even keel with the repealing of all illegal, and unConstitutional taxes), his tax on the puchase would be $99.00.

When trying to figure in the cost of cars and himes though, you also have to take into consideration, the unions and the leverage they have, as they create another bottleneck. Unions never make concessions. They only demand more and more. So the average cost of a home or car, that are new will have these costs built into them. The cost of a new car built by a union paid worker in America has 1200 bucks added to the cost just to pay for the wages and bennies union workers get. The wage and benefit difference between union and non union the last time I looked broke down to a union worker makes in wages and benefits the average of 74 dollars an hour. The average non-union private sector worker earns about 26 dollars an hour.

I dicussed this with my Uncle who retired after 33 years from Dodge. When he first went to work there in 1974, they had a workforce of 150k. Last year it was down to like 40k workers. But those 40k workers have to support all the retirees before them, plus pay their own wage with the cars they build, and sell. And lets not forget bennies either.

So when all things get taken into account, there is much that needs righting, and it won't happen until the crooks from all levels are ousted first.

But that isn't a fair illustration of a union worker's wage today because the union worker isn't getting the $74 an hour, the retired worker is getting the pension benefit they were promised.

That would be like adding in pension funds for teachers to the annual pay rate of teachers or government workers or employees of all the non-union employees in AIG and JP Chase and other non-union corporations including manufacturing corporations. I wonder what their hourly rate would be if it was calculated this way?

The $26 an hour was comparing Toyota's non-union employees in the US to our Big Auto markers employees. Toyota doesn't have a pension plan for retired workers because they haven't been operating in the US long enough to have retired their workers. But Toyota has a pension plan for its Japanese workers.

But that said, Union Leaders have let down American Union Workers by supporting Amnesty and not fighting against Free Trade Treason.

Wake Up Union Workers! Go get your jobs back ... NOW!

As to math part of your post, the FairTax is not 3%, it's 23%, 8.09% ear-marked for Social Security and MediCare and 14.91% ear-marked for General Revenue. In order to bring the general revenue rate, we have restore prosperity to our economy which the FairTax facilitates and restore control of our government to the liberty of the American People which the FairTax accomplishes and then some day when we can live up to it without putting beggars on our streets, reduce the cost of the federal government by reducing its size which is driven almost entirely, defense excluded, by poverty, unemployment and insolvency that's caused by illegal immigration, a mandated tax collection scheme, free trade treason, a failed and futile War on Drugs and bans on oil and gas drilling that steal American Jobs from American Workers.

www.fairtax.org

The people who want to reduce the size of government but who oppose or are neutral on the FairTax, like Ron Paul, want to cut the size of government in half, eliminate all individual income tax, and force corporations to support the total cost of the government of the people by the people and for the people. Ron Paul is wrong about this, although he stated during the 2008 campaign that if the FairTax got to the floor of the House, he would vote for it, but those who want the corporations to underwrite our government have missed the entire point of how Americans control their government.

Why would anyone want our government to be beholding to corporations instead of to the people of our country? How can anyone expect the government to be beholding to US, "we the people", if government is being funded by corporations instead of citizens? Asking corporations to support a government for you, is like an illegal alien coming here and asking Americans to support them.

I like Ron Paul and voted for him in the 2008 primary, but he totally misses the point and purpose of taxation, because what he's proposing is a constitutional oligarchy in the United States where corporations would control everything and citizens are but pawns in their game. I don't think he realizes that this is what he is advocating but that is in fact what he is advocating and that's certainly not in the best interest of the American People or our little free republic of free citizens with a government of the people by the people and for the people. If we want government, then "we the people" pay for it, all of it, every dime, every cent, and we control every person who legislates it. That's what the FairTax achieves among many other wonderful things for our country.

I like Ron Paul and voted for him in the 2008 primary, but he totally misses the point and purpose of taxation, because what he's proposing is a constitutional oligarchy in the United States where corporations would control everything and citizens are but pawns in their game. I don't think he realizes that this is what he is advocating but that is in fact what he is advocating and that's certainly not in the best interest of the American People or our little free republic of free citizens with a government of the people by the people and for the people. If we want government, then "we the people" pay for it, all of it, every dime, every cent, and we control every person who legislates it. That's what the FairTax achieves among many other wonderful things for our country.

I think he understands that america is a corperation not a republic and he has given up on us ever being a republic.

Originally Posted by hardlineconstitutionalist

I like Ron Paul and voted for him in the 2008 primary, but he totally misses the point and purpose of taxation, because what he's proposing is a constitutional oligarchy in the United States where corporations would control everything and citizens are but pawns in their game. I don't think he realizes that this is what he is advocating but that is in fact what he is advocating and that's certainly not in the best interest of the American People or our little free republic of free citizens with a government of the people by the people and for the people. If we want government, then "we the people" pay for it, all of it, every dime, every cent, and we control every person who legislates it. That's what the FairTax achieves among many other wonderful things for our country.

I think he understands that america is a corperation not a republic and he has given up on us ever being a republic.

Well, we're whatever we allow it to become in the hands of others or choose to make it with our own. The FairTax puts our government back in the hands of citizens so "we the people" not only control what happens here, we decide what happens here.

www.fairtax.org

Thanks Judy for the clarification on the union vs non-union worker all being auto workers. Point being though, reguardless, there is a dwindling workforce that is trying to support a retirement, plus their own wages, and the company make a profit so the shareholders earn on their investment. The thing is, to make a product that isn't overly priced and of excellent quality.

On the fairtax, I was using a hypothetical ammount. The thing is, is programs like Social Security are a pyramid scheme. I would suggest Irwin Shiff's book, The Great Social Security Swindle. It is according to the Constitution, illegal. Every citizen should be resposible for their own future. How they plan on it, is up to them. Not some government lacky. Medicaid is something else that should not be in government hands. The reason I say this, is that no matter how benevolent they may appear, they can be used against the people by those who would pervert them for their own design. And if they are robbed in the dark of night, by designing men, then how do you collect restitution from them if the tally is in billions?

I wish it was just that easy, but the founders thought that the Constitution, and the first 10 ammendments would be enough to keep keep the government and those who serve in it honest and decent. We can do the same, but in 100 or 200 years, how would it or could it be perverted by those who will, and they will, always take it for granted. It is either follish and or naive to think that by base structure, it can be controlled, but as always, when things are going well, people go to sleep, and vigilance when it is lax is when the usurpers strike.

So for me, even though I have read the info at the link to the fairtax, I still question it, not to the ideology behind it, but as to the future and how it can be used as a tool to again enslave the people and make them servants to their "servants".

To sum it up. If a tax does anymore than provide as the Constitution and the framers all stated and agreed, does more than provide for the general, and basic operations of the government, then it is not a good plan. Any left overs can be squandered away, and then we are right back to square one. I personally want to put the genie back in the bottle, but this time, make it impossible, or as near to impossible for it to escape again, and be the menace of the people like it has become.

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by hardlineconstitutionalist

I like Ron Paul and voted for him in the 2008 primary, but he totally misses the point and purpose of taxation, because what he's proposing is a constitutional oligarchy in the United States where corporations would control everything and citizens are but pawns in their game. I don't think he realizes that this is what he is advocating but that is in fact what he is advocating and that's certainly not in the best interest of the American People or our little free republic of free citizens with a government of the people by the people and for the people. If we want government, then "we the people" pay for it, all of it, every dime, every cent, and we control every person who legislates it. That's what the FairTax achieves among many other wonderful things for our country.

I think he understands that america is a corperation not a republic and he has given up on us ever being a republic.

Well, we're whatever we allow it to become in the hands of others or choose to make it with our own. The FairTax puts our government back in the hands of citizens so "we the people" not only control what happens here, we decide what happens here.

www.fairtax.org

How incredibly prophetic... This socialist government will not stop until the country erupts in social disorder. I hate to say that and I hate to see that but it is what it is...

Originally Posted by Hylander_1314

Thanks Judy for the clarification on the union vs non-union worker all being auto workers. Point being though, reguardless, there is a dwindling workforce that is trying to support a retirement, plus their own wages, and the company make a profit so the shareholders earn on their investment. The thing is, to make a product that isn't overly priced and of excellent quality.

On the fairtax, I was using a hypothetical ammount. The thing is, is programs like Social Security are a pyramid scheme. I would suggest Irwin Shiff's book, The Great Social Security Swindle. It is according to the Constitution, illegal. Every citizen should be resposible for their own future. How they plan on it, is up to them. Not some government lacky. Medicaid is something else that should not be in government hands. The reason I say this, is that no matter how benevolent they may appear, they can be used against the people by those who would pervert them for their own design. And if they are robbed in the dark of night, by designing men, then how do you collect restitution from them if the tally is in billions?

I wish it was just that easy, but the founders thought that the Constitution, and the first 10 ammendments would be enough to keep keep the government and those who serve in it honest and decent. We can do the same, but in 100 or 200 years, how would it or could it be perverted by those who will, and they will, always take it for granted. It is either follish and or naive to think that by base structure, it can be controlled, but as always, when things are going well, people go to sleep, and vigilance when it is lax is when the usurpers strike.

So for me, even though I have read the info at the link to the fairtax, I still question it, not to the ideology behind it, but as to the future and how it can be used as a tool to again enslave the people and make them servants to their "servants".

To sum it up. If a tax does anymore than provide as the Constitution and the framers all stated and agreed, does more than provide for the general, and basic operations of the government, then it is not a good plan. Any left overs can be squandered away, and then we are right back to square one. I personally want to put the genie back in the bottle, but this time, make it impossible, or as near to impossible for it to escape again, and be the menace of the people like it has become.

You're most welcome. And yes, you're absolutely right about the dwindling work force trying to support a growing retirement group in company pension funds. But pension funds are good and I support them. Most corporations have them, they are valid and necessary and everything needs to be done to protect them which means we stop illegal immigration, pass the FairTax and protect our trade which increases the employed work force in the US by increasing domestic production, and ensuring the employers and employees responsible for funding those pensions funds have all their money at their disposal to do so at their will and whim in accordance with their legal contractual obligations to fund the pensions.

The FairTax is just a much better version of state sales taxes that have been in existence for decades, work great, entrap no one, intrude upon no one, and do so without paper work or high costs for the consumer or the retail collector. So to predict what consequences would occur with the FairTax, just look at the history of any number of the 45 states who have had a state sales tax for years.

The FairTax doesn't have the potential to "enslave" anyone. It's voluntary. You only pay taxes when you buy new products and services that you choose to buy above the family consumption level, since all your essentials are tax-free, based on the size of your household, if you're a US citizen or legal permanent resident, through the Monthly FairTax Rebate, which for a family of 4 is $6,440 a year advanced to you 1/12 monthly to reimburse you for FairTaxes you will have paid on your necessities. At 23% tax rate that covers spending up to $28,000 a year per 4 person household, 2 adults, 2 kids. After you spend $28,000 on new products and services, only then do you start paying FairTaxes that haven't already been reimbursed to you. It's also your choice to sign up or not sign up for it. All you do to sign up is fill-out a form that lists the names and social security numbers of the people in your household. And the Social Security Administration handles this so there will be no cheating. The Rebate is based on $199 per month for an adult and $70 a month for a child up to 6 kids.



The FairTax designers were true Patriots and thought of everything. I've not in 4 years of studying it found one thing I would have added or left out that they did. It's as perfect a tax collection proposal as will ever be presented to the American People. It will never be any better than the FairTax.

The FairTax not only restores our tax system to one that fully complies with the US Constitution, it does put the genie back in the bottle. When or if Congress wants to raise the rate, guess what? Every American will vote against them and throw their butts out of office. The only part of the FairTax that can raise automatically by the terms of the legislation is the social security and medicare portion to fund any shortfall in social security and medicare. That will be very small incremental fractional rate increases depending on number of retires, earnings on the fund and so forth. But, likewise, because Americans will be outraged with any increase in the rate, it will force the hands of Congress to reduce the General Revenue portion to offset it.

Yes, MediCaid is a tragedy. Not that we have a program to provide for the medical needs of people with less than $2,000 in total assets, but that we have 51 million people, 1/6 or over 12% of our population, with assets of less than $2,000 in total assets in our country, under the age of 65. That's unconscionable. The Clear Choices to:

1. stop illegal immigration
2. pass the FairTax
3. protect our trade
4. legalize/regulate/tax under 2 the illegal drug trade
5. drill baby drill

will create the jobs, reflate the wages and increase the net expendable income of everyone including those on MediCaid such that the number of people eligible for MediCaid and other poverty assistance will decline instantly and continue to decline at a rapid pace so that eventually the only people on MediCaid are those with disabilities of some type that don't qualify for SSI or SS Disability or those suffering from temporary circumstances who need help for a short period of time. There should be no one in the US with assets of less than $2,000 let alone entire households, over half of them working households. That is the work of pure evil and nothing short of a modern form of slavery. The FairTax and the other 4 actions will straighten this out in short order and my guess is that the number of people on MediCaid and the other poverty programs will drop by 50% in less than 5 years, perhaps more, and another 25% in another 5 years so that in less than a decade, the number of people on MediCaid will drop from 51 million to 25 million in 5 years and drop to less than 12 million in 10 years, which would be a 75% reduction in less than decade which in today's dollars would save Americans $375 billion a year in MediCaid, SCHIP, Food Stamps and Free School Lunch Program, which today cost us $500 billion a year, before even counting the savings in HUD Housing and other poverty-related programs we also won't need any longer.

The savings can be used to pay down the debt or reduce the general revenue rate of the FairTax accordingly or some combination thereof. Most people will want to pay down the debt as fast as possible and get that monkey off our backs. But there can also be a combination of the two. I think paying down the debt as fast as possible is better economically and strategically because it reduces the interest cost on the debt which the more we pay down, the more we reduce the interest cost which is now part of our regular operating budget, which in 2010 is $164 billion a year and greater than the cost of both wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

www.fairtax.org

Originally Posted by hardlineconstitutionalist

Originally Posted by Judy

Originally Posted by hardlineconstitutionalist

I like Ron Paul and voted for him in the 2008 primary, but he totally misses the point and purpose of taxation, because what he's proposing is a constitutional oligarchy in the United States where corporations would control everything and citizens are but pawns in their game. I don't think he realizes that this is what he is advocating but that is in fact what he is advocating and that's certainly not in the best interest of the American People or our little free republic of free citizens with a government of the people by the people and for the people. If we want government, then "we the people" pay for it, all of it, every dime, every cent, and we control every person who legislates it. That's what the FairTax achieves among many other wonderful things for our country.

I think he understands that america is a corperation not a republic and he has given up on us ever being a republic.

Well, we're whatever we allow it to become in the hands of others or choose to make it with our own. The FairTax puts our government back in the hands of citizens so "we the people" not only control what happens here, we decide what happens here.

www.fairtax.org

How incredibly prophetic... This socialist government will not stop until the country erupts in social disorder. I hate to say that and I hate to see that but it is what it is...

Yep ... if left in the hands of others, we will be the USSA latest New-Comer Banana Republic on the block of globalism and global governance. But, if we stop these monsters and morons, take back our country, put the control of our country back in the hands of US citizens, citizens will not allow it. They have so far, because we were fooled, lied to, defrauded, because we weren't paying attention. Well, we're paying attention now. We want jobs, not welfare. We want trade surpluses, not trade deficits. We want secure borders, not illegal aliens. We want balanced budgets, not national debt. We want government doing our bidding, not the other way around. We want our liberty, we want our freedom, we want our privacy, we want our prosperity, we want our equality, and we want our independence.

If we want parks, we'll build them. If we want libraries, we'll fund them. If want a new house, we'll pay for it. If want new roads, we'll tell the government where to put it. And if want health insurance, we'll take care of it ourselves, thank you very much.

Judy, if you want to win people over, tell them to dump the likes of Charlie Wrangle.

Seriously though, I think what is keeping me skeptical, is first of all the ammount. It is way too much for my liking. The fruits of my labor are mine. anything over 5% is rediculously tyrannical to me. Sorry but that's my core system.

Also, the way you present it, makes it sound too good to be true. And after all the to good to be true routines I've been screwed by, I remain skeptical, and very vigilant.

I agree that pension funds are wonderful. That is what folks should be doing to provide for their own future. But people need to be taught fiscal responsibility, and in the day of government sponsered education that ain't gonna happen. In fact the kids are lucky to be able to read and write thanks to the policies adopted by the government education system.

But most importantly, what is to stop future usurpers from using it against the people, or changing it in congress to benefit themselves when the people go back to sleep because things are going well? Because the people always do it. There aren't many like nyself who stay vigilant especially when things are going well. But those are times we are labelled wackos and nutjobs, and conspiracy theorists.

I know how the usurpers work. Slowly over long periods of time, so they are almost un-noticable. An example, since 1913 when the Fed Res Act was passed, the dollar has gone from real and fiduciary money to worthless fiat money, and the value "lost" is about or hovering in the area of 96% which can be graphed out, and you can show this to people, and they will stare at you blankly. Or like I like to say, they give you the South Park stare.

And what I see the usurpers doing, is first to lull the people asleep, and slowly but incrimentally reducing the family allowance, and or at the same time, in small steps, increasing the percentage through deception. I know this sounds overly simplistic, but look at how simplistically we were robbed of our gold and silver behind the scenes by European and domestic swindlers.

So to me, I suppose the biggest thing is what I am seeing as missing safeguards.

Originally Posted by Hylander_1314

Judy, if you want to win people over, tell them to dump the likes of Charlie Wrangle.

Seriously though, I think what is keeping me skeptical, is first of all the ammount. It is way too much for my liking. The fruits of my labor are mine. anything over 5% is rediculously tyrannical to me. Sorry but that's my core system.

Also, the way you present it, makes it sound too good to be true. And after all the to good to be true routines I've been screwed by, I remain skeptical, and very vigilant.

I agree that pension funds are wonderful. That is what folks should be doing to provide for their own future. But people need to be taught fiscal responsibility, and in the day of government sponsered education that ain't gonna happen. In fact the kids are lucky to be able to read and write thanks to the policies adopted by the government education system.

But most importantly, what is to stop future usurpers from using it against the people, or changing it in congress to benefit themselves when the people go back to sleep because things are going well? Because the people always do it. There aren't many like nyself who stay vigilant especially when things are going well. But those are times we are labelled wackos and nutjobs, and conspiracy theorists.

I know how the usurpers work. Slowly over long periods of time, so they are almost un-noticable. An example, since 1913 when the Fed Res Act was passed, the dollar has gone from real and fiduciary money to worthless fiat money, and the value "lost" is about or hovering in the area of 96% which can be graphed out, and you can show this to people, and they will stare at you blankly. Or like I like to say, they give you the South Park stare.

And what I see the usurpers doing, is first to lull the people asleep, and slowly but incrimentally reducing the family allowance, and or at the same time, in small steps, increasing the percentage through deception. I know this sounds overly simplistic, but look at how simplistically we were robbed of our gold and silver behind the scenes by European and domestic swindlers.

So to me, I suppose the biggest thing is what I am seeing as missing safeguards.

You safeguard it yourself. You decide how much tax you're going to pay by deciding how much of the fruits of your labor you're going to spend on new products and services which are subject to the FairTax versus how much you're going to save, invest and spend on used items, which aren't.