Thread: Border agent shoots, kills man in Douglas

Originally Posted by Ratbstard

DGL_BP are you saying there was no standing order to use nonlethal bean bag rounds first?

No, that's not what I am saying. Frankly, that is above my pay grade. That said, it is my opinion based on knowledge and experience that the decision when to switch from less-lethal to lethal force was left to agent discretion.

I can say this, as it is public info / knowledge. The Border Patrol considers lethal force as being justified in the presence of three main points: means, opportunity, and intent. The means with which to inflict grievous bodily injury or death refers to the possession of skills or weapons to injur / kill, the opportunity refers to circumstances which would allow the injury / death to occur (meaning within throwing distance of a rock, stabbing / throwing distance with a knife, range of a weapon, etc.), and intent, which is to say the person has manifested in some way the intent to inflict grave injury or death. If any one or more of those three points is not in place, lethal force is not allowed or justifiable. For example, if someone with a rock said, "I'm going to kill you," and started to throw the rock but was well outside of the range at which (s)he could throw said rock, that would disallow the use of lethal force.

With regard to what happened to Terry, bean bags were fired before the UDAs raised their weapons and started firing. The Border Patrol is a law enforcement agency, and though in times like these some would say it is best to shoot first and ask questions later, that simply won't happen for obvious reasons. The UDAs certainly had the means and the opportunity to kill, but hadn't manifested intent. The idea behind intially firing the bean bag rounds, I surmise, was to both disorient and overwhelm the UDAs by taking control of the situation as quickly as possible using the maximum extent of force possible. The instant the UDAs manifested intent (by pointing their weapons at the agents) the agents immediately engaged with lethal force.

Though incredibly frustrating, these things are going to happen so long as there are people out there willing to do harm to a law enforcement officer simply by virtue of the never-ending battle of good vs. evil.

I back these agents 150%. In that situation, I could not have justified shooting prior to knowing that the subjects of interest were willing to accept the consequences thereof by taking things to that level. That might seem reactionary versus proactive, but when it comes to that kind of situation, it is incumbent upon the true professional to ensure consideration of all possibilites prior to engaging in irreversible measures.

Waiter,

Thank you for your service, and I appreciate your contrition. I apologize for having worded my response to your post the way I did inasmuch as I have no room to criticize one for judging and then following that up with a baseless judgment.

I think you touched on one of the key issues when you stated your desire for the truth. That is one thing that, speaking at least for myself but having experienced the frustration on a daily basis of countless others in this field, is exceedingly frustrating. The bottom line of the mission of the Border Patrol is to achieve operation control of each mile of our international boundary. The problem, though, is that if one asks ten people what the definition of operation control is, he or she would get eleven different answers. How can we achieve operational control if there isn't a clear and concise definition of it? Most agents agree across the board that it is doable so long as we are allowed the ability to do so.

Let's face it; this country needs a cheap labor resource, and furthering that honesty, there are many jobs in this country that are required but which most of us wouldn't dream of filling. That might seem defeatist, but at the end of the day, it is inarguable. That isn't to say that USCs are losing jobs unfairly to UDAs, but conversely, we all like the low prices and not having to do dirty work that others are happy to do.

Until our government comes up with better policies and regulations, we will continue to do what we are doing, whether it is deemed pointless, too much, or too little. The law is, at the end of the day, the law, and it will be enforced to the best extent possible within the constraints set by our elected officials. And that's the bottom line; if the constraints are unacceptable, then we need to vote people into office who will place acceptable constraints in place that will allow the accomplishment of the mission while not sacrificing human rights and dignity.

Responding to your questions, I think a less-lethal weapon was on-scene that night because it allows a more effective hands-off approach to obtaining control of a situation. Think of it like a Taser. A Taser and a collapsible steel baton (CSB) are on the same level of the use of force continuum. That said, if in a dynamic situation where you were trying to gain control of a subject, would you want to place yourself within a couple feet of the subject and hit him or her multiple times hoping that they would ultimately acquiesce, or would you rather deploy a Taser from fifteen feet away and immediately obtain control whether or not the subject wanted to surrender it? I would choose the latter any day, and inasmuch as the UDAs hadn't displayed intent (see earlier post regarding tri-partite requirement for lethal force), a lethal-force shooting wasn't justified, but the less-lethal control device was justified. I would much rather shoot someone with a less-lethal control device who was packing a gun with a bean bag rather than leaving cover, approaching them in the dark in rough terrain, and ordering them to drop their weapons. Let the bad guys think they're being shot and that the world is falling in on them. If it makes it even a fraction of a percentage more likely to surrender versus fighting it out, I am on-board with that approach. The number one goal of any law enforcement officer or agent should be to go home at the end of each shift safe and sound, and help his brothers and sisters do the same. If that isn't to be, though, it is paramount that the officer or agent fights to the best of their abilities, with incomparable courage and zeal, to the very end.

americans were doing alot of those jobs before the cheap labor got here.
remember these people here illegally are not only working in the fields. they are working as maids at hotels, working at restaurants (fast food and otherwise), construction, and other places that have nothing with picking fruit or vegetables.

I had a former neighbor in my apartments that was denied a job by a home builder because he WAS NOT bilingual. and he had over 25 years experience in construction.

Lets face it, too many people want the cheap labor to make their profits seem higher. they dont want to have to pay for benefits or anything to people.


keep up the work on the border and by all means. stay safe

Originally Posted by stevetheroofer

Originally Posted by DGL_BP

Waiter was sitting on his butt at home watching the boob-tube, eating Cheetos, and posting inane points of view on ALIPAC

"Or receiving chemo!" He didn't mean any disrespect Mr. Douglas Border Patrol he like the rest of us know agent Terry was killed from lack of federal concern when it comes to our border security! We're all sick of it! And if he was strapped like that then I'd have to say it was just bad fn luck and it's us the citizens of America who suffer!

I disagree; there is quite a lot of federal concern over border security, and the men and women with whom I work are testament to that. Every day, we all sacrifice of ourselves in some way, shape, or form, doing what we can to ensure the safety of the citizens of this country to the best extent possible. Yes, some things do constrain us, but at the end of the day, we all must play by the rules. A civilized society is one that is based on sound rules and regulations.

All the agents on-scene that night had lethal weaponry. Yes, it was very bad luck that he was killed, but at the end of the day, no one suffered more than Terry and his friends and family. We, too, are citizens of this country, and we are exposed to as much or more danger than the average citizen in our bid to protect the rest of the citizens from the harm we accept as a cost of doing business. As you said, all the citizens are suffering, so it is incumbent on all of us to make the changes that must be made rather than constantly beating the dead horse that is, "Government isn't doing anything." We are all the government. It says so in the preamble of the Constitution. So, the fault with regard to where this country has gone inarguably and inescapably lies on us all.

Originally Posted by jamesw62

americans were doing alot of those jobs before the cheap labor got here.
remember these people here illegally are not only working in the fields. they are working as maids at hotels, working at restaurants (fast food and otherwise), construction, and other places that have nothing with picking fruit or vegetables.

I had a former neighbor in my apartments that was denied a job by a home builder because he WAS NOT bilingual. and he had over 25 years experience in construction.

Lets face it, too many people want the cheap labor to make their profits seem higher. they dont want to have to pay for benefits or anything to people.
keep up the work on the border and by all means. stay safe

That's the bottom line. Until a sufficient number of people stand up and say, "Enough is enough!", this will not change. We simply cannot have our cake and eat it, too. With the things that most of us want will come a higher cost of living. That is something that this country has gone away from; what happened to Victory Gardens, rationing, sacrificing individually for a mutual cause? We must get back to that mentality before we can move forward.

[quote=DGL_BP]

Originally Posted by stevetheroofer

Originally Posted by "DGL_BP":zfwt7576

Waiter was sitting on his butt at home watching the boob-tube, eating Cheetos, and posting inane points of view on ALIPAC

"Or receiving chemo!" He didn't mean any disrespect Mr. Douglas Border Patrol he like the rest of us know agent Terry was killed from lack of federal concern when it comes to our border security! We're all sick of it! And if he was strapped like that then I'd have to say it was just bad fn luck and it's us the citizens of America who suffer!

I disagree; there is quite a lot of federal concern over border security, and the men and women with whom I work are testament to that. Every day, we all sacrifice of ourselves in some way, shape, or form, doing what we can to ensure the safety of the citizens of this country to the best extent possible. Yes, some things do constrain us, but at the end of the day, we all must play by the rules. A civilized society is one that is based on sound rules and regulations.[/quote:zfwt7576]

I think what he is referring too is the lack of support from DC when the politicians and those appointed to serve are working harder for amnesty for illegals than actually trying to secure the border. If the border was secured as DC wants us to beleive, both Robert Krentz and Brian Terry Might still be alive.
The fact that instead of putting military in the area south of interstate 8 in arizona versus having signs warning of smuggling operations where people might be armed also makes alot of people mad and frustrated

DGL-BP wrote use a taser or batton just on here the other day taser used on illegal died and people were upset about that.This man had a gun and i dont know about you im not taking a taser to a gun fight.

[quote=jamesw62]

Originally Posted by DGL_BP

Originally Posted by stevetheroofer

Originally Posted by "DGL_BP":3uyo683s

Waiter was sitting on his butt at home watching the boob-tube, eating Cheetos, and posting inane points of view on ALIPAC

"Or receiving chemo!" He didn't mean any disrespect Mr. Douglas Border Patrol he like the rest of us know agent Terry was killed from lack of federal concern when it comes to our border security! We're all sick of it! And if he was strapped like that then I'd have to say it was just bad fn luck and it's us the citizens of America who suffer!

I disagree; there is quite a lot of federal concern over border security, and the men and women with whom I work are testament to that. Every day, we all sacrifice of ourselves in some way, shape, or form, doing what we can to ensure the safety of the citizens of this country to the best extent possible. Yes, some things do constrain us, but at the end of the day, we all must play by the rules. A civilized society is one that is based on sound rules and regulations.

I think what he is referring too is the lack of support from DC when the politicians and those appointed to serve are working harder for amnesty for illegals than actually trying to secure the border. If the border was secured as DC wants us to beleive, both Robert Krentz and Brian Terry Might still be alive.
The fact that instead of putting military in the area south of interstate 8 in arizona versus having signs warning of smuggling operations where people might be armed also makes alot of people mad and frustrated[/quote:3uyo683s]

Well said James. It's not very compelling argument when politicians claim they care about border security and the safety of Americans, and then turn around and lobby for amnesty on behalf of illegal invaders. One might get the impression politicians might be more concerned with appeasing the interests of their corporate donors - who have become reliant on this cheap, south of the border labor - in order to preserve their profit margins.

Originally Posted by duckman

DGL-BP wrote use a taser or batton just on here the other day taser used on illegal died and people were upset about that.This man had a gun and i dont know about you im not taking a taser to a gun fight.

That's inaccurate. I did not say use a taser or a baton, I said I would much rather use a taser in place of a baton, given that they are on the same level of the use of force continuum. If a situation warranted lethal force it would be, in my opinion, a poor decision to use less-lethal options.

No matter what, there will be people upset when an Agent uses any of his or her primary or secondary weapons to take and maintain control of a situation. I couldn't care less about that so long as I make it home at the end of the shift and I was acting within the letter and scope of my position.

The alien that died after being tased did not die because he was tased. He died because he was a doper, weakened his heart due to the drug use, broke the law, was caught, and then fought with law enforcement who were affecting enforcement of the law. So, bluntly, the taser and the officer who fired it didn't kill him, he killed himself through his behavior and actions. It's unfortunate it happened, but he chose the path he took and must deal with the consequences. That goes, too, for the dead USC drug smuggling rock-thrower.

No matter what, there will be people upset when an Agent uses any of his or her primary or secondary weapons to take and maintain control of a situation. I couldn't care less about that so long as I make it home at the end of the shift and I was acting within the letter and scope of my position.

I think everyone on here wants you to be safe and use your best judgement and to go home safe and sound every night to your family and friends.

The alien that died after being tased did not die because he was tased. He died because he was a doper, weakened his heart due to the drug use

the Medical examiner who did the autopsy came to this conclusion, too