Thread: Border agent shoots, kills man in Douglas

[quote=jamesw62]

Originally Posted by DGL_BP

Originally Posted by stevetheroofer

Originally Posted by "DGL_BP":10b7jc7q

Waiter was sitting on his butt at home watching the boob-tube, eating Cheetos, and posting inane points of view on ALIPAC

"Or receiving chemo!" He didn't mean any disrespect Mr. Douglas Border Patrol he like the rest of us know agent Terry was killed from lack of federal concern when it comes to our border security! We're all sick of it! And if he was strapped like that then I'd have to say it was just bad fn luck and it's us the citizens of America who suffer!

I disagree; there is quite a lot of federal concern over border security, and the men and women with whom I work are testament to that. Every day, we all sacrifice of ourselves in some way, shape, or form, doing what we can to ensure the safety of the citizens of this country to the best extent possible. Yes, some things do constrain us, but at the end of the day, we all must play by the rules. A civilized society is one that is based on sound rules and regulations.

I think what he is referring too is the lack of support from DC when the politicians and those appointed to serve are working harder for amnesty for illegals than actually trying to secure the border. If the border was secured as DC wants us to beleive, both Robert Krentz and Brian Terry Might still be alive. The fact that instead of putting military in the area south of interstate 8 in arizona versus having signs warning of smuggling operations where people might be armed also makes alot of people mad and frustrated[/quote:10b7jc7q]

I agree, but my point was that we are all representatives of the government, so when someone lumps the government as a whole as not caring, that is an unfair stereotype. There are people in DC that care, and others whom purport to care, and it is our job (meaning every citizen with the right to vote) to ensure they are held accountable, and to make that message crystal clear to the others.

I personally knew Rob, and he was a very nice, stand-up guy. He would often put himself in danger by contacting aliens on his property and feeding and providing water to them while waiting for the Border Patrol to arrive. I have every faith that we are going to catch the person who did this. Sadly, Rob was in a remote location, and his ranch is nearly 45 minutes from the station at a high rate of speed. He will be sorely missed, and we are all working even harder to ensure this kind of violence does not occur again. The facts, though, simply cannot be ignored; the US Border Patrol is tasked with the security of roughly 745,000 square miles of territory (length of international boundaries, including possesions, including all territory to 100 miles inland) with a force roughly 50% the size of the NYPD sworn staff which patrols around 325(?) square miles.

One might get the impression politicians might be more concerned with appeasing the interests of their corporate donors - who have become reliant on this cheap, south of the border labor - in order to preserve their profit margins.

What? Politicians pandering to the almighty dollar rather than being beholden to their constituency?! Say it isn't so!

DGL

Thank you for returning and posting.

Your apology is both greatly appreciated and graciously accepted.

In that same light I again admit that I may have been able to convey my feelings a lil better that evening.


When you speak of "Operational Control" of our border and getting 11 answers to the question of the definition.
I believe there is only one acceptable answer.

I like to believe I suffer from an affliction called "Common Sense"

Our Country has poured billions of dollars in resources and the live's of numerous brave men and women of our armed forces into establishing and maintaining operational control of the 37th Parallel.
so why would any less of a commitment from our government be acceptable for our own borders?

I do not see where there is any room for debate.

I again would like to welcome you to this forum and it has been a true and thought provoking pleasure to have had the opportunity to interact with you.

I would also hope that you will take your coat off and stay awhile and share more of your valuable insights and experiences with this forum.

In fact bring your buds? The more the merrier!!!

BTW if you are ever up here in Orygun you are welcome to stop by and I will share my Cheetoh's with you!!!

Your right DGLBP i said the same thingon here that it wasnt the taser that killed that man it was the drugs.MAN i got slammed for it.Ive been tased as part of my training while serving in military it hurt but it didnt stop my heart.I wasnt try to criticize you didnt mean it that way.Im like you one less rosk throweror doper.

Originally Posted by DGL_BP

Waiter,

Thank you for your service, and I appreciate your contrition. I apologize for having worded my response to your post the way I did inasmuch as I have no room to criticize one for judging and then following that up with a baseless judgment.

I think you touched on one of the key issues when you stated your desire for the truth. That is one thing that, speaking at least for myself but having experienced the frustration on a daily basis of countless others in this field, is exceedingly frustrating. The bottom line of the mission of the Border Patrol is to achieve operation control of each mile of our international boundary. The problem, though, is that if one asks ten people what the definition of operation control is, he or she would get eleven different answers. How can we achieve operational control if there isn't a clear and concise definition of it? Most agents agree across the board that it is doable so long as we are allowed the ability to do so.

Let's face it; this country needs a cheap labor resource, and furthering that honesty, there are many jobs in this country that are required but which most of us wouldn't dream of filling. That might seem defeatist, but at the end of the day, it is inarguable. That isn't to say that USCs are losing jobs unfairly to UDAs, but conversely, we all like the low prices and not having to do dirty work that others are happy to do.

Until our government comes up with better policies and regulations, we will continue to do what we are doing, whether it is deemed pointless, too much, or too little. The law is, at the end of the day, the law, and it will be enforced to the best extent possible within the constraints set by our elected officials. And that's the bottom line; if the constraints are unacceptable, then we need to vote people into office who will place acceptable constraints in place that will allow the accomplishment of the mission while not sacrificing human rights and dignity.

Responding to your questions, I think a less-lethal weapon was on-scene that night because it allows a more effective hands-off approach to obtaining control of a situation. Think of it like a Taser. A Taser and a collapsible steel baton (CSB) are on the same level of the use of force continuum. That said, if in a dynamic situation where you were trying to gain control of a subject, would you want to place yourself within a couple feet of the subject and hit him or her multiple times hoping that they would ultimately acquiesce, or would you rather deploy a Taser from fifteen feet away and immediately obtain control whether or not the subject wanted to surrender it? I would choose the latter any day, and inasmuch as the UDAs hadn't displayed intent (see earlier post regarding tri-partite requirement for lethal force), a lethal-force shooting wasn't justified, but the less-lethal control device was justified. I would much rather shoot someone with a less-lethal control device who was packing a gun with a bean bag rather than leaving cover, approaching them in the dark in rough terrain, and ordering them to drop their weapons. Let the bad guys think they're being shot and that the world is falling in on them. If it makes it even a fraction of a percentage more likely to surrender versus fighting it out, I am on-board with that approach. The number one goal of any law enforcement officer or agent should be to go home at the end of each shift safe and sound, and help his brothers and sisters do the same. If that isn't to be, though, it is paramount that the officer or agent fights to the best of their abilities, with incomparable courage and zeal, to the very end.

First of all, you didn't understand Waiter's post, jumped to a highly erroneous conclusion because you misread it, and then tried to insult an American who has probably been serving this country since long before you were born.

Second of all, neither you nor anyone else from Border Patrol needs to come on this site defending the actions of US Border Patrol Agents, because there is no group of people in this country who supports the US Border Patrol more than this site. We've been watching the backs of our US Border Patrol agents for soon to be 7 years.

Third, if you want to play footsie with either the intent or merit of US immigration law, then you need to do some deep soul-searching. We can't have Border Patrol employees who aren't 100% committed to the purpose of these laws which is to keep illegal aliens out of our country and help deport those who are already here.

Fourth, our country neither needs nor wants a "cheap labor resource". The United States hasn't been about "cheap labor" since the Republicans ended slavery in 1865. Our people want good wages and benefits and a high standard of living which we can't attain or sustain with millions of illegal aliens pouring over the borders and legal immigrants stampeding through customs with green cards and visas every year.

Fifth, I am totally 100% opposed to the use of Police Tasers and believe they should be banned in the United States. If you have a lethal force situation, then pull your gun and use it. Period. If you don't, then wrestle 'em down and cuff 'em. If you can't do that, then another line of work might be in order. Border Patrol has already killed an unarmed illegal alien with a Taser and the family is of course suing the people of the United States as a result of it. Domestic law enforcement has already killed 400 unarmed Americans with the so-called "non-lethal" Taser.

Sixth, Brian Terry should have used lethal force which was Waiter's point and one that is spot on. The agent who killed the rock-thrower should and will be exonerated. If not, this site will fight as hard for him as we fought for Ramos and Compean.

Seventh, we want illegal aliens deported and kept out of the United States whatever it takes, by all means necessary. So please don't come on here babbling about enforcing the law until the laws are changed that don't "sacrifice human rights and dignity." Illegal aliens left their human rights and dignity at the border the day they entered the US in violation of US immigration law and all they are entitled to is the same treatment as any other criminal in the US which is due process of law.

Eighth, there is no job Americans won't do, there never has been and there never will be. If you'd rather work in some capacity for Border Patrol, that's purely up to you, but there is no more nobility or class rank to it than the farmers tied to their plots and barns 24/7/365 or the American citizens who have worked for them most of their lives or the American citizens who clean toilets and change beds for minimum wage and do it for 3 employers a day to pay their rent and feed their kids or the millions of American citizens that still work in factories and manufacturing plants.

Ninth, please don't refer to citizens of the United States as USC's or illegal aliens as UDA's on this site. That ranks as the single most egregious belittlement of the American People as anything I've heard or read from a government employee, to date.

Tenth, "operational control" of the US borders and ports will be achieved when there are no illegal aliens getting through either one and all the illegal aliens already here have been deported with no means to re-enter. This country has 26 million unemployed and underemployed Americans, 55 million people on MediCaid, 43 million on food stamps, 60% of K-12 students on free school lunch, and to no surprise, 45 out of 50 of our states are broke, our federal government is bankrupt and US citizens have a $15 trillion national debt to pay off with no means to do so, due largely to years of unfettered unimpeded illegal immigration and excessive legal immigration. So, when all these bad numbers plummet is when we'll know you have "operational control" of the borders of the United States, and not one day before.

Originally Posted by jamesw62

No matter what, there will be people upset when an Agent uses any of his or her primary or secondary weapons to take and maintain control of a situation. I couldn't care less about that so long as I make it home at the end of the shift and I was acting within the letter and scope of my position.

I think everyone on here wants you to be safe and use your best judgement and to go home safe and sound every night to your family and friends.

[quote:27zd0s2g]The alien that died after being tased did not die because he was tased. He died because he was a doper, weakened his heart due to the drug use

the Medical examiner who did the autopsy came to this conclusion, too[/quote:27zd0s2g]

The cause of death in the autopsy report was lack of oxygen to the brain, caused by a stoppage of the heart, which will be proven to be caused by the multiple Taser hits which stop the heart with each hit, not any alleged weakened heart from drug use. It's time members of our law enforcement community who use Tasers and support their use learn the facts about this lethal weapon. The studies are out now with the experts and data to prove it beyond any doubt in a court of law. The issue in that case is going to be whether lethal force was required. With 1 unarmed criminal down on the ground and 25 law enforcement officers dealing with him, what do you think a jury is going to decide? I don't think that one is going to have a good outcome, at all.

Victims Family Speaks out
http://www.alipac.us/ftopict-232633.html

Originally Posted by duckman

Your right DGLBP i said the same thingon here that it wasnt the taser that killed that man it was the drugs.MAN i got slammed for it.Ive been tased as part of my training while serving in military it hurt but it didnt stop my heart.I wasnt try to criticize you didnt mean it that way.Im like you one less rosk throweror doper.

It did stop your heart. Your heart re-started. If you'd been tased multiple times within less than a minute, it's entirely likely your heart wouldn't have re-started either and you would have died from lack of oxygen to the brain.

Start following the issue of Tasers and you'll learn a lot about them. They also cause thoracic compression which are fractures to the spine. That study was proven by an emergency medical team here in North Carolina and published in the American Journal of Medicine. The study that proves Tasers stop the heart was done by a group at the University of Wisconsin.

9 millimeters are usually very affective when used as intended. Center mass.

Much quicker and more affective than batons, mace, taser toys, etc.

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