Thread: Border agent shoots, kills man in Douglas

First, both Waiter and I have exercised maturity and character by sorting out any differences, perceived or literal misunderstandings, and poorly worded interchanges. You would be well served to learn from both of us in that regard. He said some things he regretted, as did I. We both apologized, and that was the end of the story until you came along and stuffed your overly-busy nose into things that are none of your business. Further, inasmuch as you have no idea when I was born, you are as guilty as anyone of jumping to ill-informed conclusions, so it might be an idea to take a long, hard look in the mirror before jumping on that bandwagon, again.

Second, you had better rest assured that I will, in an instant, jump on anyone whom I feel is deriding, degrading, or belittling the men and women of this Service, especially erroneously. Everyone has their opinions, and as you can read from the thread of posts involving my interchange with Waiter, it is clear what happened. I am not going to get into what is already perfectly clear in black-and-white, and what everyone else but you seemed to be over days ago.

Third, again, you don’t know me from Adam, so you don’t have any idea what you’re talking about regarding your recommendation that I should engage in the soul-searching you think I should. As much as it probably pains you to admit this, it is obvious from your post that you aren’t anywhere near the expert on immigration, legal or otherwise, that you think you are, and further, the vast majority of men and women in the U.S. Border Patrol will forget more about those things than you will ever hope to know. Regardless of what you think, we need men and women on the line who know the difference between BS / rhetoric and what will actually get the job done. If something isn’t working, then the best man I want on the job is the one that says, “Hey, we’re shoveling sand against the tide here, so let’s consider a different, more effective, more efficient approach.â€

"DGL_BP" said more in one comment than everyone else here combined.
I like your FACTS and info.
Much of what others say is just personal opinion, not facts.
I praise the hard working men and women of I.C.E. and the Border Patrol every chance I get.
Keep up the good work.

RELATED UPDATE

Border agent killed man climbing wall

http://www.alipac.us/ftopict-232714.html

Sixth, Brian Terry DID use lethal force, as did every other agent on-scene, so again,

Unfortunately there are many reports going around that would disupute your claim. The sad thing is, We will never know the truth.

Furthering that thought, Ramos and Compean got what they did because they failed to follow Service policy and regulations prior to and during the shooting, lied about the incident, endeavored to cover it up, falsified government forms / documents, and acted in a way that was both unbecoming and detrimental to the overall image of the fine men and women on the force. Before you yet again put words in my mouth, I’m not saying they got what they deserved. They got much more than that. But that said, they have no business in the patrol if they don’t have the honor or integrity that is required by the level of authority inherent in the position and exercised by the vast majority of agents. I do not want those that would bring shame to the badge in the Service, nor do any of my coworkers.

SHAME?? Ramos had been Nominted for Border Patrolman of the year just before the incident happened. He was also a trainer and highly respected by those he worked with. The fact that all the problems regarding this incident should have had discipline come from in-house instead of a court room. From what I read based on the documents posted online from the West Texas US Attorney Office and other places, apparently the procedure is like this, you notify a supervisor, and the supervisor is the one who is suppose to fill out the paper work when someones weapon is discharged. They did that as did some others at the scene that day. The problem was the supervisor in question did not fill out any paper work because he said he would have had to do it on his day off, take up 6-8 hours and since no one was shot, he deemed it a dry shoot.
it wasnt until the mother of the doper talked to a friend, whos son was a BP agent in Arizona that things started getting looked into. and in the trial transcripts, the agent even said his dupervisor didnt say he could or couldnt look into matters regarding the incident so the agent took it upon himself to check things. Its funny though, that an agent of the US government sided with a drug smuggler and got two other agents charged and thrown in prison for doing their job..
and by the way, if you want to talk conspiracy on this case, everyone involved was guilty of it because NO ONE Else reported what happened either.

DGL_BP wrote:

You also need to come to terms with the fact that deporting 12,000,000+ UDAs is simply out of the question. It cannot be done given the means we have available to us at this point. The only way to do so would be to offer some kind of path to legal status with the caveat that, in order to get it, the person applying would have to do so from outside of the country (meaning self-deportation). End of story.

I think you're dead wrong! This isn't an either or situation we're dealing with. No one is saying we have to deport 12+ million illegal aliens, and most certainly no one is saying we have to offer a path to citizenship to illegals! IMHO, it's never good policy to reward law breakers. Dealing with the illegal alien problem can be done in a number of ways, none of which HAVE TO include a path to citizenship (amnesty). Furthermore, our illegal alien problem didn't happen in a week and it's not going to be resolved in a week. To get on the right track we have to actually practice 'attrition through enforcement' in our interior, make e-verify mandatory nation-wide, bring back work place raids, perform surprise audits and deport those found working illegally, while providing for harsher penalties for those doing the hiring. I think a combination of audits and work place raids is what should be happening. Do secret audits and then conduct a raid. Also, I think we need to build more double-layered fencing with high-speed roads, stadium lighting, and sensors along our border. The fence in San Diego is a good example of what I'm talking about. I'm sure there are other things we can do to enhance our abilities to deal with the problem effectively that DON'T INCLUDE PLACING ILLEGAL ALIENS ON A PATH TO CITIZENSHIP! I think most Americans realize there is no immediate fix, but I think we can bring the problem under control in 5 or so years. Folks like me just want to see us turn the corner on the situation and start heading in the right direction. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not even close to feeling that way right now.

When you say UDA's, are you actually saying undocumented aliens? If so, I can assure you many of them are not undocumented, especially those that have already found their way across the border. From what I understand, fake documentation is not that difficult to obtain. Additionally, normally 'undocumented alien' is a term I normally hear in the media or from illegal alien supporters. Is UDA border speak or is that how you really feel?

Fourth, you’re completely off your rocker if you think this country can survive right now without a cheap labor resource. I’m sure that, as much as you’re beating your drum about this, you support your stand by not shopping at WalMart or other large box or grocery stores that acquire their products or provide services from cheap labor resources.

By your definition of what it takes for this country to survive, I must be off my rocker. Can't you remember a time when neighborhood kids used to mow yards, work at the local Dairy Queen, take summer jobs bailing hay, working on the farm, picking pecans during harvest, etc.? Oh, and by the way, I performed all those jobs listed above when I was in high school and college. In any case, illegal aliens are not just picking lettuce and digging ditches these days. They are now doing jobs that once were decently compensated, middle class trades. Many jobs, which used to be middle class jobs, are increasingly becoming work for illegal aliens at far less than the free market rate. While illegal alien workers are only a small portion of many of those job categories their willingness to work at dramatically lower rates artificially drags down the compensation for all workers. If you don't believe me, ask folks who work, or used to work, in the construction industry such as roofers, plumbers, electricians, dry-wallers, brick masons, etc. You're dead wrong about us needing cheap labor to survive! Also, there are legal ways for farmers to get the labor they keep screaming for through the H-2A program. Oh, that's right, they don't want to pony up the government required compensation for such workers.

I commend you for protecting our border, however, I don't think being a border patrol agent qualifies you to be all-knowing when it comes to all issues concerning illegal immigration. With that said, however, I do respect your opinion and your right to have one. Hopefully, you'll do likewise.

DGL_BP said... Fourth, you’re completely off your rocker if you think this country can survive right now without a cheap labor resource Cheap labor Is killing this country. We are becoming a country of haves and have-nots. Cheap labor undermines the entire economy to the detriment of working class AMERICAN citizens. Illegal aliens are a net drain on our society that Is at epidemic proportions. We do not need cheap uneducated labor to fill the jobs that AMERICAN teenagers used to do. The Industrial revolution began with hard working AMERICANS getting paid a fair wage. The reason that the United States Is falling behind the technological curve Is because UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE that are paid slave wages are Increasingly elbowing Into areas of umployment that USED TO PAY A MIDDLE CLASS WAGE. United States companies that rely on this "cheap labor" are employing less skilled Individuals to their own companies detriment,and to the detriment of our country and It's LEGAL citizens.... TS

SHAME?? Ramos had been Nominted for Border Patrolman of the year just before the incident happened.

I have personally seen an agent be pulled from muster after having received a similar award at the Station level, called into the third-in-command's office, had his weapon and credentials removed, and ultimately fired. As insane as it sounds, it isn't unheard of.

He was also a trainer and highly respected by those he worked with. The fact that all the problems regarding this incident should have had discipline come from in-house instead of a court room.

Completely agreed. If one looks at the CBP Table of Offenses and Penalties, the most I feel either should have received was termination, and that would have been selecting the most serious sanctions for their actions possible. What they did in no way, shape, or form warranted any kind of court action or legal sanction, let alone more than a decade behind bars. The reason this occured, I am convinced, is that the AUSA wanted to burn a couple of federal agents (for some reason, this seems to be a feather in the cap for many), and inasmuch as Sutton was a law school buddy of George W. Bush, Ramos and Compean certainly weren't going to get the same treatment that I. Scooter Libby did.

From what I read based on the documents posted online from the West Texas US Attorney Office and other places, apparently the procedure is like this, you notify a supervisor, and the supervisor is the one who is suppose to fill out the paper work when someones weapon is discharged. They did that as did some others at the scene that day. The problem was the supervisor in question did not fill out any paper work because he said he would have had to do it on his day off, take up 6-8 hours and since no one was shot, he deemed it a dry shoot.
it wasnt until the mother of the doper talked to a friend, whos son was a BP agent in Arizona that things started getting looked into. and in the trial transcripts, the agent even said his dupervisor didnt say he could or couldnt look into matters regarding the incident so the agent took it upon himself to check things. Its funny though, that an agent of the US government sided with a drug smuggler and got two other agents charged and thrown in prison for doing their job..

That's the gist of things. The Agent in AZ, though, went to the Office of Inspector General. That said, though, Ramos and Compean were certainly required to cut memos, and did not. Further, it was incumbent upon them to take it up the chain if the supervisor said to disregard any paperwork especially for the reasons he claimed. There is always a duty supervisor, so their direct supervisor wouldn't have had to come in on a day off. He might have had to stay a bit late that day, but he would have been compensated for that, of course.

and by the way, if you want to talk conspiracy on this case, everyone involved was guilty of it because NO ONE Else reported what happened either.

I don't think it was a conspiracy, but I certainly think it was a number of poor on-the-spot choices followed up by a number of poor formalized decisions.

Originally Posted by topsecret10

DGL_BP said... Fourth, you’re completely off your rocker if you think this country can survive right now without a cheap labor resource Cheap labor Is killing this country. We are becoming a country of haves and have-nots. Cheap labor undermines the entire economy to the detriment of working class AMERICAN citizens. Illegal aliens are a net drain on our society that Is at epidemic proportions. We do not need cheap uneducated labor to fill the jobs that AMERICAN teenagers used to do. The Industrial revolution began with hard working AMERICANS getting paid a fair wage. The reason that the United States Is falling behind the technological curve Is because UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE that are paid slave wages are Increasingly elbowing Into areas of umployment that USED TO PAY A MIDDLE CLASS WAGE. United States companies that rely on this "cheap labor" are employing less skilled Individuals to their own companies detriment,and to the detriment of our country and It's LEGAL citizens.... TS

I agree with every bit of that, save for the part where you say we don't need the cheap labor. We do need it, and will continue to need it, until the citizens of this country come together as a united front and are willing to pay the higher prices that are inescapable when goods and services are provided by people earning a living wage. Right now, many of them are being provided by people earning less than a living wage inasmuch as the less-than-living wage does not have withholdings coming out of it. So, $5/hour is equivalent to minimum wage without withholdings. So, people have to be, themselves, the change they want to see in others. How? Stop purchasing items or services that are completed by those not paying their way, and stop purchasing them from employers who take advantage of that. Yes, it will cost more money, but the country depends on it. We all have to sacrifice in order to overcome this issue.

I think you're dead wrong! This isn't an either or situation we're dealing with. No one is saying we have to deport 12+ million illegal aliens, and most certainly no one is saying we have to offer a path to citizenship to illegals! IMHO, it's never good policy to reward law breakers. Dealing with the illegal alien problem can be done in a number of ways, none of which HAVE TO include a path to citizenship (amnesty). Furthermore, our illegal alien problem didn't happen in a week and it's not going to be resolved in a week. To get on the right track we have to actually practice 'attrition through enforcement' in our interior, make e-verify mandatory nation-wide, bring back work place raids, perform surprise audits and deport those found working illegally, while providing for harsher penalties for those doing the hiring. I think a combination of audits and work place raids is what should be happening. Do secret audits and then conduct a raid. Also, I think we need to build more double-layered fencing with high-speed roads, stadium lighting, and sensors along our border. The fence in San Diego is a good example of what I'm talking about. I'm sure there are other things we can do to enhance our abilities to deal with the problem effectively that DON'T INCLUDE PLACING ILLEGAL ALIENS ON A PATH TO CITIZENSHIP! I think most Americans realize there is no immediate fix, but I think we can bring the problem under control in 5 or so years. Folks like me just want to see us turn the corner on the situation and start heading in the right direction. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not even close to feeling that way right now.

I should have prefaced my previous comment with, "The way things are now, ....." Yes, it is possible, but it is not possible the way things are, now. It is simply entirely too inefficient per person to remove 12MM as it is unless A) we offer the Holy Grail following self-deportation or B) bring back some of the more effective but less "friendly" policies of yesteryear. However, you said, "No one is saying we have to deport 12+ million illegal aliens, and most certainly no one is saying we have to offer a path to citizenship to illegals!" If we don't deport them, and we don't offer them a path to citizenship simply as a means to know who we have in this country, what should we do? Leave them be? Or, continue to deport them as we are, now? In 2010, ICE deported roughly 400K people, which was a record amount of deportations. In the five years you claim it would take, that would be 2,000,000, still decidely short of the widely-estimated 12,000,000 that are purported to be here, now. At the end of the day, DHS simply does not have the personnel or the funds to engage in the activities you mentioned to the degree required to obtain the results you feel are possible. Those are flat-out facts. Unless we receive the funding to hire the personnel needed and fund the programs you mentioned, it simply cannot be done that way.

Though the no-mans-land fence in San Diego is effective, most of the border terrain is disimilar than in San Diego, and disallows that kind of fence mainly due to the ruggedness of the terrain and the cost to install it. But, that is something that could be remedied with more boots on the ground.

When you say UDA's, are you actually saying undocumented aliens? If so, I can assure you many of them are not undocumented, especially those that have already found their way across the border. From what I understand, fake documentation is not that difficult to obtain. Additionally, normally 'undocumented alien' is a term I normally hear in the media or from illegal alien supporters. Is UDA border speak or is that how you really feel?

UDAs are undocumented aliens. Whether they have fraudulent documents or not, they are still undocumented inasmuch as the documents aren't considered valid. UDAs is, obviously, synonymous with IAs, CBVs, etc. It has nothing to do with support. At the end of the day, an alien is an alien is an alien.

By your definition of what it takes for this country to survive, I must be off my rocker. Can't you remember a time when neighborhood kids used to mow yards, work at the local Dairy Queen, take summer jobs bailing hay, working on the farm, picking pecans during harvest, etc.? Oh, and by the way, I performed all those jobs listed above when I was in high school and college. In any case, illegal aliens are not just picking lettuce and digging ditches these days. They are now doing jobs that once were decently compensated, middle class trades. Many jobs, which used to be middle class jobs, are increasingly becoming work for illegal aliens at far less than the free market rate. While illegal alien workers are only a small portion of many of those job categories their willingness to work at dramatically lower rates artificially drags down the compensation for all workers. If you don't believe me, ask folks who work, or used to work, in the construction industry such as roofers, plumbers, electricians, dry-wallers, brick masons, etc. You're dead wrong about us needing cheap labor to survive! Also, there are legal ways for farmers to get the labor they keep screaming for through the H-2A program. Oh, that's right, they don't want to pony up the government required compensation for such workers.

As I mentioned in a previous post, yes, the way things are now, this country cannot survive without a cheap labor resource because to great of a percentage of citizens is unwilling to pay the higher prices that come with hiring and paying for work those whom are here legally. Don't believe it? Look how many people will support large box stores coming into a small community even though they all know that it will likely be the death knell for small businesses. At the end of the day, it is inarguable that, unless we stop moving toward being a country of individualists looking out solely for ourselves, and start returning to being a society that puts the greater good ahead of our own, we will continue down this path toward eventual self-destruction. In previous generations we had Victory Gardens, war bonds, etc. In the most recent generations, we have none of that, and a shocking majority can't even name the three branches of government! Unless something major changes regarding the priorities of many of the citizens of this country, we're in for some very heavy rolls while coming about.

I commend you for protecting our border, however, I don't think being a border patrol agent qualifies you to be all-knowing when it comes to all issues concerning illegal immigration. With that said, however, I do respect your opinion and your right to have one. Hopefully, you'll do likewise. [/quote]

I have never said that it does, nor do I claim to be an expert on all matters. What is inarguable, though, is that being involved from this perspective on a day-to-day basis, and seeing things first-hand rather than through the lens of political or media bias, does allow a much clearer focus on the real issues rather than a perceived or misinformed focus. I have nothing against anyone's opinion inasmuch as everyone is entitled to their own opinions. That's what this country is all about.

no thats not the gist of things, that is what both agents have said.
AND thats what was told under oath at the trial by the agent from Arizona,. who is now in el paso and has whistle blower protection and last i heard also teaches at the academy in artesia.