Thread: Can a past of Islam change the path to president for Obama?

DYEHARD

This discussion has gone from good to bad to worse - to ridiculous.

Actually, your being or not being a muslim is quite relevant to this discussion. Especially considering your refusal to stick to the issue of 'islamic law.' You are attempting to make this discussion one of religion when religion isn't the issue at all. The CONSTITUTION and the Rule of Law vs islamic law is the issue.

Why would my living or not living in EVERY muslim country be relevant? Again, you have no idea of my background.

Christianity is NOT the issue. Judaism is NOT the issue. Buddism is NOT the issue. Religions of the world are not the issue.

ISLAMIC LAW is the only issue.

All the posts that you have made with volumnous 'stuff' is just that - 'stuff.'
None of which is relevant to this discussion.

I appreciate & respect all that you bring to the ILLEGAL ALIEN INVASION issue and agree with most of what you say. However, we obviously won't agree with this and although I believe strongly that your beliefs with this issue is dangerous for our America and our Constitution, there's nothing left to be said.

[quote="noyoucannot]

There is no "moderate" Islam or "radical" Islam. There is just Islam.

Your are contradicting your statement below.

The doctrine of jihad to spread Islam is a constant in Islamic theology throughout the ages and has never been repudiated by any school of Islamic jurisprudence. As well, Islam contains codified and detailed laws for conducting warfare in the name of God; something that no other religion can claim.

Christians or Jews, unders Saddam, were not forced to become Muslims. Not forced to go to be taught Islam. There were free to practice what ever religion they believed. Islam is not force on anyone.

Islam divides the earth between believer and unbeliever. There are peaceful verses in the Qur'an which are called the "Meccan" verses. These verses came from the beginning of Mohammed's "ministry" when his armies were not yet strong and so were more conciliatory. Later, as his army became stronger, the verses become more violent. These are the Medina verses and they abrogate the more peaceful, earlier Meccan verses.

There are many good and peaceful Muslims in the world; however, Islam, when followed to the letter, is not peaceful as regards non-Muslims. So, the difference is between the ones who practice pure Islam where Sharia is strictly adhered to and "moderate" or secular Muslims who do not follow the Sharia. The problem is knowing which ones are which and when a "moderate" Muslim will be inspired to become more devout and begin to practice pure Islam and follow the Sharia.

There is no such thing as "pure Islam". The Koran is one book, unlike the different translations of the Bible.

Sharia is not compatible with secular, Western democracy. It is a comprehensive political, economic, social belief system as well as a religious one. With Sharia there is no need for man made laws or constitution.

and Western doctrine is not compatiable with Islam. Islam is a way of life with Muslims and cannot be separated, but it depends on how the Koran is interpreted and practiced.

If American foreign policy is soley responsible for the rise of "radical" Islam, then why are Islamists chopping the heads off of Buddhist monks in Thailand and Christian school girls in Indonesia? How about the violence against Christians in Nigeria where the Islamists are trying to impose Sharia Law. There are conflicts all over the world which involve Muslims trying to impose Sharia that have absolutely nothing to do with American foreign policy.

Read: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a beautiful and brave Muslim woman from Somalia, Robert Spencer, Sharia, dhimmi, taqiyya. There is a lot to know. Remaining in denial about this is not much different than remaining in denial regarding the "reconquista" agenda.

The problem in Nigeria has nothing to do with religion.

Originally Posted by 2ndamendsis

DYEHARD

This discussion has gone from good to bad to worse - to ridiculous.

I agree.

Actually, your being or not being a muslim is quite relevant to this discussion. Especially considering your refusal to stick to the issue of 'islamic law.' You are attempting to make this discussion one of religion when religion isn't the issue at all. The CONSTITUTION and the Rule of Law vs islamic law is the issue.

Why would my living or not living in EVERY muslim country be relevant? Again, you have no idea of my background.

Christianity is NOT the issue. Judaism is NOT the issue. Buddism is NOT the issue. Religions of the world are not the issue.

ISLAMIC LAW is the only issue.

All the posts that you have made with volumnous 'stuff' is just that - 'stuff.'
None of which is relevant to this discussion.

I appreciate & respect all that you bring to the ILLEGAL ALIEN INVASION issue and agree with most of what you say. However, we obviously won't agree with this and although I believe strongly that your beliefs with this issue is dangerous for our America and our Constitution, there's nothing left to be said.

Islamic law is about religion. Whoes rule of law?
I hope my beliefs are not that strong because they are the same as many Americans.
You are right, we will never agree and I think it is best I stay were we agree, illegal immigration.
We have agreed to disagree and that is as far as we can go. It got agumentive a long time ago.
The only point I have been tring to make is that all muslims are not terrorist and all terrorist are not Muslims. The Koran is interpreted differently by Muslims, just as the Bible is interpreted differently by Christiams. Both Cristians and Muslims practice their religion differently. and that Islam and it's politics cannot be separated as in American where religion and politics are.

Originally Posted by dyehard39

If American foreign policy is soley responsible for the rise of "radical" Islam, then why are Islamists chopping the heads off of Buddhist monks in Thailand and Christian school girls in Indonesia? How about the violence against Christians in Nigeria where the Islamists are trying to impose Sharia Law. There are conflicts all over the world which involve Muslims trying to impose Sharia that have absolutely nothing to do with American foreign policy.

Read: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a beautiful and brave Muslim woman from Somalia, Robert Spencer, Sharia, dhimmi, taqiyya. There is a lot to know. Remaining in denial about this is not much different than remaining in denial regarding the "reconquista" agenda.

The problem in Nigeria has nothing to do with religion.

That's BS, dyehard, and you know it. I think we ALL know that the problems in Nigeria have EVERYTHING to do with religion. Christians are targeted and attacked based SOLELY on the fact that they are Christian. Read the 'Voice of the Martyrs' newsletter to see for yourself.

Originally Posted by PinestrawGuys

Originally Posted by dyehard39

If American foreign policy is soley responsible for the rise of "radical" Islam, then why are Islamists chopping the heads off of Buddhist monks in Thailand and Christian school girls in Indonesia? How about the violence against Christians in Nigeria where the Islamists are trying to impose Sharia Law. There are conflicts all over the world which involve Muslims trying to impose Sharia that have absolutely nothing to do with American foreign policy.

Read: Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a beautiful and brave Muslim woman from Somalia, Robert Spencer, Sharia, dhimmi, taqiyya. There is a lot to know. Remaining in denial about this is not much different than remaining in denial regarding the "reconquista" agenda.

The problem in Nigeria has nothing to do with religion.

[quote:3smeyfjy]That's BS, dyehard, and you know it. I think we ALL know that the problems in Nigeria have EVERYTHING to do with religion. Christians are targeted and attacked based SOLELY on the fact that they are Christian. Read the 'Voice of the Martyrs' newsletter to see for yourself.

[/quote:3smeyfjy]

Most of Nigerians are Muslims and they are targeted. The biggest proble is Nigeria is it's oil and it proceeds are not fairly distributed among it's people. Christian being target is a small part of the problem.

Your are right, I did not know the attack on Christians was so extensive. Iknew there was a problem but I honestly was not aware of this.

Christians in Islamic Countries Targeted
1. NewsMax.com Wires
Wednesday, Oct. 17, 2001
WASHINGTON - The situation of Christians has deteriorated in many Islamic countries since the terrorist attacks on the U.S. and the subsequent U.S.-British raids on Afghanistan, according to Paul Marshall, a senior fellow at the Center for Religious Freedom.
A prominent U.S. imam Monday assailed as un-Islamic the persecution of Christians in Muslim countries ranging from Indonesia to Nigeria. "The Koran enjoins Muslims to treat everybody with dignity and compassion," said Muzzamil Siddiqi, director of the Islamic Society of Orange County, Calif., when asked about the murder threats, violence, forced conversions, incarceration and discrimination some Christians are being subjected to.
Diane Knippers, president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, praised Siddiqi's remarks as a wonderful statement. "We need more of this. We need Muslim groups in the U.S. to raise their voices on behalf of Christians in predominantly Muslim areas."
Knippers pointed out that "U.S. churches were quick to speak up on behalf of Moslems in our society. They rightly encouraged all America to treat them with respect. At the same time the churches should speak up when Christians in Muslim areas are in jeopardy." The National Council of Churches' news service also condemned persecution Monday.
"We consider persecution of any religious group unacceptable. We are actively engaged in protecting Christians and other religious minorities in countries around the world in partnership with indigenous religious groups. To give specific details could jeopardize both their security and our efforts on their behalf," the service said in a statement.
In a similar vein, Jerry Powers of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops stated that his church had been consistently active on behalf of persecuted Christians abroad.
Marshall, an internationally recognized authority on religious rights, said Christians were in peril in a long belt of Muslim nations stretching from the eastern parts of Indonesia all the way to West Africa.
In some cases this was due to government policies; in others religious fanatics are menacing Christians, embarrassing national governments, he added.
In an interview with United Press International, Marshall drew a grim picture, country by country:
Indonesia: In the eastern islands of this largest Muslim nation in the world, white-uniformed militiamen of Laskar Jihad are forcibly converting Christians to Islam. Marshall said this caused considerable embarrassment to the government, which did not condone such actions.
This campaign has so far cost the lives of 5,000 to 6,000 people, the British-born scholar related. "There are links between Laskar Jihad and top terrorist Osama bin Laden," he said.
Bangladesh: Small radical groups supporting Osama bin Laden have bombed or burned down churches.
Pakistan: Christians depend on the protection of the government as several Muslim leaders have issued fatwas (religious decrees) to kill two Pakistani Christians for every Afghan Muslim who dies in the Anglo-American air raids.
There have also been attacks on Christians along the Afghan border, Marshall told UPI.
Egypt: The government discriminates against Christianity by financing the construction of mosques, while denying permits for the reconstruction of Christian sanctuaries, according to Marshall.
Saudi-Arabia: In the last two months, 15 Christian expatriates have been jailed for worshiping in private homes, and three have been tortured, according to the religious rights organization International Christian Concern.
An information officer at the Saudi embassy in Washington, who declined to give his name, denied this Tuesday: "As far as we know this is not true. We are not aware of any in jail at this time," he said.
No religion other than Islam is allowed in the kingdom, and there is no church. When asked about this, Abdullah M. Khouj, rector of the Islamic Center in Washington, replied, "This is a matter to be negotiated between governments."
Sudan: Some 2 million people, chiefly Christians, have been killed in a civil war fought by the radical Islamic regime in the north of the country against non-Arab population in the south, according to several sources including Marshall and Diane Knippers' Institute on Religion and Democracy.
For several years now, international religious rights organizations have reported that Christians are being raped, tortured to death and crucified.
Somalia: Anybody found out to be a Christian will quickly be beheaded by Muslim vigilantes, Marshall said.
Nigeria: In 12 states, versions of Shari'a law, the Islamic penal code, have been imposed - in violation of the constitution of that African federal republic.
After the imposition of Islamic law, riots ensued killing 5,000 in the city of Kaduna alone, said Marshall. Other reports put the death toll at around 1,000.
In other Muslim countries, such as Algeria, Islamic radicals opposed to the government are killing other Muslims, primarily women and children although they have also murdered priests, nuns and even a bishop, Marshall explained.
Others, such as the once-tolerant, formerly republican African nation of Mauritania are now taking tougher measures against Christians, Marshall continued. "If you arrive with a Bible, they'll take it off you. And it's illegal to preach Christianity to the locals."
Becoming a Christian in many Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, Iran or Afghanistan can mean that one loses one's job, one's ability to be educated, one's family, and even one's life, Wendy Norvell of the Southern Baptist Convention's International Mission Board told UPI.
Added Robert Reccord, president of the SBC's North American Mission board, "We look forward to the day when Christians living in Islamic countries will have the same religious freedoms that Muslims currently enjoy in the United States and Canada.”
Copyright 2001 by United Press International.
All rights reserved.
Read more on this subject in related Hot Topics:
Middle East
War on Terrorism
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http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 0223.shtml

Originally Posted by dyehard39

Originally Posted by CrocketsGhost

Originally Posted by dyehard39

Have you Lived in all the Muslim countires? Not all of these country's Muslims practice radical Islam. If they did we would we in big stuff.

Dyehard, they may not all practice radical Islam, but most of them defend it over every other faith (take your own desperate defense of it here as an example). And they sure as Hell are not quick to condemn the vicious and murderous acts of the Islamic terrorists. THAT is the problem.

Dyehard, I would like to hear your opinion of terrorism as a means of promoting Islam or punishing her enemies. I would like to hear your opinion as to whether all people should convert to Islam or else be subjects under it. I would like to know whether you believe that Muhammad made a binding command to his followers to spread Islam to every corner of the Earth and to subjugate those not "of the book."

The majority of Muslims do not DEFEND acts radical Muslims. The majority of Muslims CONDEMN terrorist acts. I do not defend radical muslims and their terrorist acts, but I cannot blame all Muslims for those acts. All people should not convert to Islam or subject to it's laws. Muslim countries have a right to their religion, laws and defend it as we do here in America. We should not attempt to force our beliefs and laws on Muslim countries. I do not believe Muslim preach, as we do, to spread their religious belief. They just want to be left alone to practice as they believe and all not not radical beliefs. We are the ones who want to spread democracy and christianity throughout the world by force.

The Koran does not teach jihad as practiced by radical Muslims.



Muslim Americans Condemn Attack
9/11/2001 - Political Social Religious - Article Ref: AM0109-335
Number of comments: 27
By: American Muslim Leaders
American Muslim Leaders* -
In the Name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful

Dr. Yahia Abdur-Rahman, from the Islamic Shurah Council of Southern California (ISCSC), offers Supplication For The Victims

Dr. Maher Hathout, from the the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC) and The Islamic Center of Southern California (ICSC), condemns the attack and issues a statement. Click here to listen

Dr. Ahmad Sakr, from the Islamic Education Center (IEC), offers his condolences to the families of the victims and condemns the attack. Click here to listen

Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), condemns the attack. Click here to listen

________________________________________
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 9/11/01
U.S. MUSLIMS CONDEMN TERRORIST ATTACKS

(WASHINGTON, DC - 9/11/2001) - The American Muslim Political Coordination Council (AMPCC), today condemned the apparent terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and offered condolences to the families of those who were killed or injured.
The AMPCC statement read in part:
"American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."
Leaders of the American Muslim Political Coordination Council (AMPCC) held a meeting in Washington, DC, on Tuesday, September 11, 2001, to issue the following points related to the terrorist attacks:
1) We assert unequivocal condemnation based on our religious values and our identity as American Muslims;

2) We do not need to defend every maniacal incident emanating from the Muslim world or the Muslim community, just as other religious groups need not defend their extremists;

3) We offer compassion to the victims and solidarity with all Americans in the face of danger;

4) Notwithstanding the disbelief that anyone following the faith of Islam could commit such a heinous crime, we condemn the act regardless of the identity of the perpetrators;

5) We deplore the irresponsible reporting that twists the realities and complexities of the Muslim world in order to project only anti-American sentiment during this disturbing period when we are all attempting to move beyond the state of mourning for the national tragedy;

6) We warn against opportunists who will exploit the misery and hysteria of the public in order to promote a political agenda aimed at tarnishing the name of Islam and Muslims;

7) We should not diminish our resolve to be active in protecting the civil liberties of all Americans and struggling for justice both locally and globally;

We need to organize activities to help the victims medically, psychologically and in every other way we can.
________________________________________
American Muslim Alliance (AMA) Condemns Terrorist Attack
(Newark, California: 9/11/01) The American Muslim Alliance, a national civic education organization, condemned today's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington in the "strongest terms".
Dr. Agha Saeed, the national Chair of the American Muslim Alliance, Stated:
"These attacks are against both divine and human laws and we condemn them in the strongest terms. The Muslim Americans join the nation in calling for swift apprehension and stiff punishment of the perpetrators, and offer our sympathies to the victims and their families."

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Arti ... AM0109-335

The statements you have provided represent a whisper of condolence amid a hurricane of glee in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. Do you imagine that we have no eyes or ears, dyehard? Do you believe that we have not seen the exultant rallies celebrating the deaths of Americans?

Originally Posted by "CrocketsGhost
[quote

The statements you have provided represent a whisper of condolence amid a hurricane of glee in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. Do you imagine that we have no eyes or ears, dyehard? Do you believe that we have not seen the exultant rallies celebrating the deaths of Americans

?

I saw the rallies and I saw and heard those Muslims that condemn 9-11. What is it that you want from Muslims that are not part of the radical extremist?
You want to round them up and put them in internment camps, like we did the Japanese that were American Citizens?

"All Muslims are not terrorist and all terrorist are not Muslims."

That is the only point I've been trying to make.

Originally Posted by dyehard39

Originally Posted by "CrocketsGhost
[quote

The statements you have provided represent a whisper of condolence amid a hurricane of glee in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. Do you imagine that we have no eyes or ears, dyehard? Do you believe that we have not seen the exultant rallies celebrating the deaths of Americans

?

I saw the rallies and I saw and heard those Muslims that condemn 9-11. What is it that you want from Muslims that are not part of the radical extremist?
You want to round them up and put them in internment camps, like we did the Japanese that were American Citizens?

"All Muslims are not terrorist and all terrorist are not Muslims."

That is the only point I've been trying to make.

Obviously we are not suggesting that all Muslims be rounded up. The point that I an (I think) others are trying to make is that the condemnsations are damned few and far between, and more often that not have the slimy veneer of political expediency rather than the ring of sincerity. Yeah, I have seen a few of the politically expedient press releases, but I have not seen the rallies of which you speak, and I certainly have seen nothing even vaguely offsetting the massive and virulent rallies celebrating the mayhem caused by the terrorists.

Perhaps when I have some evidence that the massive flow of cash from US Muslims to overseas terrorist groups has abated I will modify my opinion of them. Maybe when I see domestic Muslims condemning the flow of cash to the governments and institutions that arm and outfit the terrorists and insurgents I will believe that they are sincere in their disdain for their brothers in Allah. Until then, I will continue having the common sense to know that only the most fanatical Muslims here in this country would OPENLY support terrorist acts against Americans. That leads me left in a position of wonder WHICH Muslims are the ones who want their neighbors to be purged in an Islamic jihad.

Radical Christians and radical Muslims.

The actions by Christians are not much different than the acts done by Muslims. Both interpret the Bible and Koran to fit their needs and actions.
At time, the Bible has sanctioned indiscriminate killings, although the command is “thou shall not kill”
God commanded the Israelites to go into the promise land and kill everything living:
Deut 20;16;17..you must not preserve a breathing thing alive..you should without fail devote them to destruction..just as you God has commanded...
Deut 7;16...you must consume all the people..must not feel sorry for them..
Were these Israelite terrorist?
Radical Christians have use these examples as an excuse to kill anyone not like them in race and religion.The Amonites, Hittite, Canaanite, Prizzites, Hivites were no threat except their religious belief. They did not attack the Israelites first. Still God commanded them to be exterminated.
Later when Christ came on the scene things changed, but Christian attitude did not and some have not changed even now.
Very few Christians follow his teachings and interpret the Bible to fit their actions and obey the scriptures as they wish.
1 Pet 2;21...Christ..a model for you to follow...
John 13;15...I set the pattern..
1 John 2;6...he that remains in union with him is under obligation..to go on walking as that one did.
Not many Christians follow Christ as early Christians did who practiced religion as a way of life. Now we do not feel it is a way of life any longer. Government is our way of life.
They obeyed the commandment “thou shall not kill” by not being a part of the Roman army and there are Christians that do not go to war under no circumstances. They believe;
Rom 12;17-19,21...vengeance in mine saith the lord..do not avenge yourself.1 Chro 20;17..you will not need to fight ...stand still and see the salvation of God in you behalf.... Do not be afraid...
Rom 12;17,18..return evil for evil to no one..
Pro 20;22..hope in God and he will save you..
1 Pet 15; Let none of you suffer as a murderer...
Matt 5;44..love you enemy...pray for those that persecute you..

How are we as Christians so different than Muslims who twist and interpret the Koran to fit their actions and needs.There are Christians and Muslims who do not twist the Bible and the Koran to fit their actions.
I’ve read nothing in the Bible that teaches that it is O.K. to war and kill for any reason. It shows that Christians do not believe or have faith in their God.

The most dangerous people on earth are the Evangicals who believe in wars, Jews are God’s chosen people and anything the do is O.K because it must be sanctioned by God. The are against abortions and kill abortion doctors and have no problem sending their children to die and kill other people children. Believe that since he profess to be a Christian that he was placed in office.
I condemn both, radical Christians and radical Muslims. They are alike more than they differ.
Matt 10;28..do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Jude 5...god...saved a people out of Egypt, then destroyed those not showing faith. We are not showing faith in God and he will “bring to ruin, those ruining the earth.”
John 16;2...the hour is coming when everyone that kills you will imagine he has tendered a sacred service to God. They will do these things because they have not come to know either the Father or me...

There is no difference in the use of the Bible and Koran to support violence.
There is more violence approved in the Bible than in the Koran.
The entire population was destroyed during the flood. Jerusalem was destroyed twice. Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed, etc. holy wars was the norm in the old testament. Incest, polygamy, cannibalism, murder and all sorts of atrocities were sanctioned. Pat Robertson and other radical Christian pray for their God to be with Israel and Bush in killing. We force democracy on others countries and killing those who disagree. That is the way radical Christians interpret the Bible and their God and radical Muslims does the same.
Both are wrong and we need to pray they both go away before they destroy us all.Who is the terrorist, the murderer? Bush is as much a terrorist as Bin Laden. We used to call those who disagreed and fought against corruptions “revolutionist” and now we call them “terrorist.” We call our selves "liberators" and those we kill as "colateral damage."

and I am a Christian and I do not believe killing is a necessity in any situation.