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  1. #1

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    Examining the argument of giving up liberty for safety

    The Libertarians and the ACLU crowd are always quoting Ben Franklin:
    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." (Benjamin Franklin)
    This argument makes sense in the context of the American Revolutionary War for independence, but when you try to apply it to every possible scenario it breaks down. It just does not apply in all cases.

    For example,

    Should we repeal traffic laws because we are exchanging safety for the liberty of speeding or driving recklessly?

    Should we repeal health regulations of food that is processed or prepared in restaurants? Aren't we limiting the freedom of the food processor or restaurant in exchange for the safety of the customer.

    Should we repeal regulations that govern the quality and the safety of any other product or service?

    Should we repeal any laws that insist that a person must identify himself as an American citizen prior to voting? Are we sacrificing the freedom of unidentified people (who may not even be Americans) in exchange for a secure voting process.

    Should we repeal any laws that insist that a person must identify himself prior to boearding an aircraft? Are the rights of an anonymous person more important than the safety of the other passengers?

    In summary, the Ben Franklin quote does not have universal applicability to all circumstances. Using such quotes as cliches is not so much different from the way liberals use cliches as a substitute for critical thinking.
    [b] If we do not insist on Voter ID, how can we stop illegals from voting?

  2. #2
    Senior Member roundabout's Avatar
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    The key to me is Essential. Speeding is hardly an essential liberty.

  3. #3

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    Looks like it is a misquote anyway:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Those_who_ ... al_Liberty

    "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety", is an often misquoted phrase commonly attributed to Benjamin Franklin.

    The quote is taken from, "An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania," first published anonymously in London in 1759. The quote is an excerpt from a letter written in 1755 from the Assembly to the Governor of Pennsylvania.

    Benjamin Franklin did publish the edition printed in Philadelphia in 1812, and most likely the original, but denied writing any part of it. The quote, however, may have originated from Franklin and been excerpted for the book by the author.

    A very similar quote is also sometimes attributed to Thomas Jefferson. However the website for the Jefferson Library makes it clear that Jefferson was quoting Franklin."

    *******************************************

    Anyway, not proving your real identity or insisting on remaining anonymous or undocumented, is not an essential liberty either.
    The rights of other Americans to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are violated by those who will not prove their real ID when boarding an airplane.
    [b] If we do not insist on Voter ID, how can we stop illegals from voting?

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by roundabout
    The key to me is Essential. Speeding is hardly an essential liberty.
    Who determines what is an essential liberty? Do you have a list of essential liberties that we can all agree on? Are there any limits on essential liberties? For example, can we scream "Fire!" in a crowded theatre? Can we commit libel with impunity?
    [b] If we do not insist on Voter ID, how can we stop illegals from voting?

  5. #5
    Senior Member roundabout's Avatar
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    No, no, I am not going there Jonathan, I should have known better.

    I am not a lawyer, and will not pretend to be either. Lawyers have a way of taking a word and giving it a whole new life. Clinton used legalese to explain the definition of "sex." And I thought I already knew that one.

    The one Essential liberty for me, a simple man, would be the 'right to bear arms.' That way if any other liberties I deem Essential feel threatened, I reserve recourse!

  6. #6

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    OK, roundabout, then remaining anonymous when boarding a public airliner is not an essential liberty.
    [b] If we do not insist on Voter ID, how can we stop illegals from voting?

  7. #7
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    Responsibility.

    With liberty comes responsibility. Is a six year old "we the people"? yes. Does a six year old have the right to bear arms? Yes. Is it responsible to allow the six year old to run around with a loaded gun? Noooooo...lol.

  8. #8
    Senior Member roundabout's Avatar
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    Yes I agree Jonathan, boarding a public airliner anonymously is not an essential liberty.

    I also agree that quotes used as a cliche' do not carry universal weight. Common sense and discretionary placement of such quotes are important factors.

    I like to use quotes in a reasonable context, as a starting point to cut to the chase if you will. Or to end a statement with bang.

    Thanks for the history on Ben's quote. I have always like that one, and have used it often debating the 2nd Amendment opponents.

  9. #9

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    Re: Responsibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzloversinc
    With liberty comes responsibility. Is a six year old "we the people"? yes. Does a six year old have the right to bear arms? Yes. Is it responsible to allow the six year old to run around with a loaded gun? Noooooo...lol.
    A six year old is not old enough to be responsible for handling firearms without the supervision of an adult. His right to bear arms is therefore quite limited.
    [b] If we do not insist on Voter ID, how can we stop illegals from voting?

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by roundabout
    Yes I agree Jonathan, boarding a public airliner anonymously is not an essential liberty.
    Neither is voting or entering a public building if you cannot prove you are an American citizen.
    [b] If we do not insist on Voter ID, how can we stop illegals from voting?

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