Thread: The lid is OFF 9/11/01!!!

Come on guys, you are all pretty smart researchers, how many of you have suspected that 9/11 was an inside job for quite a while.

I have just been waiting for someone to bring up the subject.
"9/11 WAS AN INSIDE JOB!!" There I said it.

There are many knowledgeable people who have been trying to get this out for a long, long, time.

How about Scholars for 911 truth movement.

http://911scholars.org/

http://stj911.org/index.html

How about Pilots for 9/11 Truth

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_For_T ... owforum=21

http://physics911.net/

http://physics911.net/gallery/advisory

Here is a site where the BBC film is still playing

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC.htm

http://www.911blogger.com/

http://www.boston911truth.org/

http://www.geeman-headquarters.com/Hufsmid_Movie.html

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheResistance

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www. ... r.org/911/

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www. ... .wtc7.net/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ke+ruppert

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ke+ruppert

http://www.loosechange911.com/

http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/index.html

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6412050608 This is loosechange 2nd edition video

http://www.lonelantern.org/collection.html

http://lonelantern.org/site/index.php?o ... &Itemid=33

http://www.pumpitout.com/


http://www.members.shaw.ca/truth911/truth911/index.htm


http://www.members.shaw.ca/truth911/tru ... cvids.html


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... abel%3A911


http://www.911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml


http://www.911truth.org/

http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/9-11BasicQuestions

http://www.rense.com/Datapages/popmechdat.htm

http://www.rense.com/general72/therm.htm

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

http://www.rense.com/Datapages/ess911.htm


http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid= ... +mysteries

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4255077250

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Building+7+BBC

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... 3650110959


http://www.falseflagnews.com/


The 911 Truth Is Not Some Kind Of "Mysterious Secret"

The 911 counter-evidence is obvious. The fact that the truth is finally coming out is refreshing.

September 11 is not up for debate. It has already been proven, far beyond a reasonable doubt, that the Government did 911--that was the easy part. The hard part is getting the truth out to the American public, because to them the thought of the Government doing 911 is taboo.

It is not as though the 911 counter-evidence is weak, it is blind allegiance, herd mentality and ignorance, that is stalling these truths. The evidence is here, but because the people have been tricked into believing the 911 Commission and don't want to feel they have been duped for the last 4 years, they stop asking questions. For the skeptics, being correct is more important than being corrected. Skeptics are not "defending the truth," they are just defending their fragile egos. A real defender of the truth would take all pieces of evidence into account; and then, they would evaluate that evidence OBJECTIVELY.


There are enough links here, do your own research and come to your own conclusion.

First off, the ideas behind the conspiracy theories for 9/11 don't make objective sense. If, I say IF, the government was going to pull off such a crime, it would be so much cleaner than the wild stuff claimed in these theories. For example, I have seen claims that there weren't even airplanes involved - that the buildings were hit by cruise missiles. Really? Then WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THOSE MISSING PLANES AND THEIR PASSENGERS? If you're going to have to destroy them, why not just go ahead and use them rather than risking them turning up or that someone will recognize or capture on film a cruise missile?

There are people whose sole job it is to think up these sorts of scenarios if and when they are planned by government. It is euphimistically referred to as "gaming." I can tell you that no gamer would ever come up with a plan as wacky as any of the ones hypothesized, and anyone who came up with one as easy to uncover as this one allegedly is (1) would never become a gamer to begin with and (2) would have been laughed out of the tank and then "disappeared."

In order to understand something like 9/11, you have to be able to apply lateral logic. You have to be able to keep suspended the multiplicity of threads created by each "what if?" scenario until a credible set of scenaria begin to take shape out of the 4-D matrix of possibilities. In other words, it is critical to reject the obvious disinformation, and most of the links posted above are obvious disinformation. The test? Well, it is reason plus experience plus carefully filtered, sound information. Without experience in the art of "gaming," you are trapped by every gambit. Once you are experienced, you still have to sort through motives and countermotives. Here's a hint: If you were surprised by the endings of No Way Out or The Prestige, you probably have no business attempting to test the validity of the plethora of conspiracy theories surrounding events like 9/11 or the Kennedy assassination. I don't want to insult anyone, so I won't point to any specific examples, but I watch people on this very site being led around by their noses on a daily basis. The problem is that anyone stupid enough to fall for disinformation is not going to be smart enough to appreciate when you point out the fact.

Getting to the bottom of something like 9/11 is like peeling an onion. If you're still believing that this thing was planned and carried out by the administration, you haven't even gotten past the dead skin. By the time you get to the heart of the matter you will be in tears.

Dear Ghost

It is scary that many of your arguments are typical neo-con arguments.

For example, taking the most fanciful 911 theories and attributing them to all those who question the truth about 911. The 911 Scholars for Truth don't buy those stories and neither do most Americans.

Also you choose your words very carefully, such as saying "if you believe that 911 was planned and carried out by the Administration" blah, blah ,blah.

911 was years in the planning, before this administration was in power, but some of the administration's key players could have been involved in the planning. Some obviously were involved in carrying out 911, and finally, the Administration is and has been actively involved in covering up the truth of 911.

Lastly, I have not seen your response to the Steve Watson article I posted earlier. Any thoughts on that ?

UB

If, I say IF, the government was going to pull off such a crime, it would be so much cleaner than the wild stuff claimed in these theories.

The same was thought with regard to the agenda based Iraq invasion authored in the 90's and carried forth by our selected president. It always looks cleaner and better on paper. They needed a reason to incite the anger of Americans and what better way to do it by making us think that we are under attack.

I stick to my theory that Clinton was never supposed to be elected and that his second term really delayed the process of overthrowing Sadaam and owning those oil fields. The only way to ensure that the dems did not retain power was to dig up the dirt and create a scandal that would send the republican masses to the polls. It is no accident that Jr. "won" the election.

Additionally, Sadaam was in the process of converting to the Euro system which would have devalued the dollar in a way that it would become worthless. There is a lot of unknowns behind the current mess, what I do know is that this was all planned in the 90's and Bush 41 was supposed to get 2 terms and Jr was supposed to succeed him. While I am no Clinton fan, his 2 terms served to delay Bush/Cheney, Wolfowicz, Pearl, Rumsfeld invasion and the mess we are in today.

Honestly, I'm a little shocked regarding some of the postings in this thread. CG is right, people with nothing better to do with their time stay up late nights to dream these conspiracy theory scenarios up. It just surprises me that so many people take the bait, hook, line, and sinker. I guess some of us are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

No matter what we personally think of President Bush, he doesn't have as black a heart as some would have us believe. There is no way on Gods green earth he deliberately murdered 5,000 American men, women, and children to further an agenda and there is no evidence to substantiate such an outrageous claim. Perhaps the following will help answer the questions some folks have:

National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster

Answers to Frequently Asked Questions

(NIST NCSTAR throughout this document refers to one of the 43 volumes that comprise NIST’s final report on the WTC Towers issued in October 2005. All sections of the report listed in this document are available at http://wtc.nist.gov.)

1. If the World Trade Center (WTC) towers were designed to withstand multiple impacts by Boeing 707 aircraft, why did the impact of individual 767s cause so much damage?

As stated in Section 5.3.2 of NIST NCSTAR 1, a document from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (PANYNJ) indicated that the impact of a [single, not multiple] Boeing 707 aircraft was analyzed during the design stage of the WTC towers. However, NIST investigators were unable to locate any documentation of the criteria and method used in the impact analysis and, therefore, were unable to verify the assertion that “… such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building.…”

The capability to conduct rigorous simulations of the aircraft impact, the growth and spread of the ensuing fires, and the effects of fires on the structure is a recent development. Since the approach to structural modeling was developed for the NIST WTC investigation, the technical capability available to the PANYNJ and its consultants and contactors to perform such analyses in the 1960s would have been quite limited in comparison to the capabilities brought to bear in the NIST investigation.

The damage from the impact of a Boeing 767 aircraft (which is about 20 percent bigger than a Boeing 707) into each tower is well documented in NCSTAR 1-2. The massive damage was caused by the large mass of the aircraft, their high speed and momentum, which severed the relatively light steel of the exterior columns on the impact floors. The results of the NIST impact analyses matched well with observations (from photos and videos and analysis of recovered WTC steel) of exterior damage and of the amount and location of debris exiting from the buildings. This agreement supports the premise that the structural damage to the towers was due to the aircraft impact and not to any alternative forces.

2. Why did NIST not consider a “controlled demolition” hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the “pancake theory” hypothesis? A key critique of NIST’s work lies in the complete lack of analysis supporting a “progressive collapse” after the point of collapse initiation and the lack of consideration given to a controlled demolition hypothesis.

NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation into what caused the WTC towers to collapse, as explained in NIST’s dedicated Web site, http://wtc.nist.gov. This included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the towers.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.



Diagram of Composite WTC Floor System

NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;

the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.

Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.

3. How could the WTC towers have collapsed without a controlled demolition since no steel-frame, high-rise buildings have ever before or since been brought down due to fires? Temperatures due to fire don't get hot enough for buildings to collapse.

The collapse of the WTC towers was not caused either by a conventional building fire or even solely by the concurrent multi-floor fires that day. Instead, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large, jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires weakened the now susceptible structural steel. No building in the United States has ever been subjected to the massive structural damage and concurrent multi-floor fires that the towers experienced on Sept. 11, 2001.

4. Weren't the puffs of smoke that were seen, as the collapse of each WTC tower starts, evidence of controlled demolition explosions?

No. As stated in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, the falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it—much like the action of a piston—forcing smoke and debris out the windows as the stories below failed sequentially.

These puffs were observed at many locations as the towers collapsed. In all cases, they had the appearance of jets of gas being pushed from the building through windows or between columns on the mechanical floors. Such jets are expected since the air inside the building is compressed as the tower falls and must flow somewhere as the pressure builds. It is significant that similar “puffs” were observed numerous times on the fire floors in both towers prior to their collapses, perhaps due to falling walls or portions of a floor. Puffs from WTC 1 were even observed when WTC 2 was struck by the aircraft. These observations confirm that even minor overpressures were transmitted through the towers and forced smoke and debris from the building.

5. Why were two distinct spikes—one for each tower—seen in seismic records before the towers collapsed? Isn't this indicative of an explosion occurring in each tower?

The seismic spikes for the collapse of the WTC Towers are the result of debris from the collapsing towers impacting the ground. The spikes began approximately 10 seconds after the times for the start of each building’s collapse and continued for approximately 15 seconds. There were no seismic signals that occurred prior to the initiation of the collapse of either tower. The seismic record contains no evidence that would indicate explosions occurring prior to the collapse of the towers.

6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)—speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NCSTAR 1-5A).

As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that:

“… the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.

Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass.”

In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.

7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren’t hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?

In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.

UL did not certify any steel as suggested. In fact, in U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was “certified ... to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours” is simply not true.

8. We know that the sprinkler systems were activated because survivors reported water in the stairwells. If the sprinklers were working, how could there be a 'raging inferno' in the WTC towers?

Both the NIST calculations and interviews with survivors and firefighters indicated that the aircraft impacts severed the water pipes that carried the water to the sprinkler systems. The sprinklers were not operating on the principal fire floors.

However, there were ample sources of the water in the stairwells. The water pipes ran vertically within the stairwells. Moreover, there would have been copious water from the broken restroom supply lines and from the water tanks that supplied the initial water for the sprinklers. Thus, it is not surprising that evacuating occupants encountered a lot of water.

Even if the automatic sprinklers had been operational, the sprinkler systems—which were installed in accordance with the prevailing fire safety code—were designed to suppress a fire that covered as much as 1,500 square feet on a given floor. This amount of coverage is capable of controlling almost all fires that are likely to occur in an office building. On Sept. 11, 2001, the jet-fuel ignited fires quickly spread over most of the 40,000 square feet on several floors in each tower. This created infernos that could not have been suppressed even by an undamaged sprinkler system, much less one that had been appreciably degraded.

9. If thick black smoke is characteristic of an oxygen-starved, lower temperature, less intense fire, why was thick black smoke exiting the WTC towers when the fires inside were supposed to be extremely hot?

Nearly all indoor large fires, including those of the principal combustibles in the WTC towers, produce large quantities of optically thick, dark smoke. This is because, at the locations where the actual burning is taking place, the oxygen is severely depleted and the combustibles are not completely oxidized to colorless carbon dioxide and water.

The visible part of fire smoke consists of small soot particles whose formation is favored by the incomplete combustion associated with oxygen-depleted burning. Once formed, the soot from the tower fires was rapidly pushed away from the fires into less hot regions of the building or directly to broken windows and breaks in the building exterior. At these lower temperatures, the soot could no longer burn away. Thus, people saw the thick dark smoke characteristic of burning under oxygen-depleted conditions.

10. Why were people seen in the gaps left by the plane impacts if the heat from the fires behind them was so excessive?

NIST believes that the persons seen were away from any strong heat source and most likely in an area that at the time was a point where the air for combustion was being drawn into the building to support the fires. Note that people were observed only in the openings in WTC 1.

According to the International Standard ISO/TS 13571, people will be in severe pain within seconds if they are near the radiant heat level generated by a large fire. Thus, it is not surprising that none of the photographs show a person standing in those gaps where there also was a sizable fire.

The fire behavior following the aircraft impacts is described in NIST NCSTAR 1-5A. In general, there was little sustained fire near the area where the aircraft hit the towers. Immediately upon impact of the aircraft, large fireballs from the atomized jet fuel consumed all the local oxygen. (This in itself would have made those locations rapidly unlivable.) The fireballs receded quickly and were followed by fires that grew inside the tower where there was a combination of combustible material, air and an ignition source. Little combustible material remained near the aircraft entry gashes since the aircraft "bulldozed" much of it toward the interior of the building. Also, some of the contents fell through the breaks in the floor to the stories below.

Therefore, the people observed in these openings must have survived the aircraft impact and moved—once the fireballs had dissipated—to the openings where the temperatures were cooler and the air was clearer than in the building interior.

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.

Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition.

Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.

13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage
from the WTC towers?

NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.

NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.

Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.

14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?

When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation. After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers. With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses. It is anticipated that a draft report will be released by early 2007.

The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:

An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;

Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and

Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.

This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation. NIST also is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Well, that poked a stick into the hornet's nest!

Is it not possible that the 'whacko' theories like cruise missiles, RC planes and space beams are nothing more than 'psy-ops' designed to discredit anyone not toeing the official storyline?

It is rumored that the Towers were going to have to come down and that they knew this back in 1989. There is a report found here that discusses it.

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/ ... _App_D.pdf

Have fun, folks!!

Originally Posted by UB

Dear Ghost

It is scary that many of your arguments are typical neo-con arguments.

For example, taking the most fanciful 911 theories and attributing them to all those who question the truth about 911. The 911 Scholars for Truth don't buy those stories and neither do most Americans.

Also you choose your words very carefully, such as saying "if you believe that 911 was planned and carried out by the Administration" blah, blah ,blah.

911 was years in the planning, before this administration was in power, but some of the administration's key players could have been involved in the planning. Some obviously were involved in carrying out 911, and finally, the Administration is and has been actively involved in covering up the truth of 911.

Lastly, I have not seen your response to the Steve Watson article I posted earlier. Any thoughts on that ?

UB

LOL!!!

First off, my arguments are no more "neo-con" than I am. I am the antithesis of neoConservatism. I perceive that you attempt to slander me with that characterization because you confuse the application of reason with defense of this administration. I believe that this administration is morally capable of following through on such a plan. I just don't happen to believe that the facts add up to that. What I do believe happened beyond reasonable doubt is that the administration had the buildings imploded after the fact. Most of the conspiracy arguments that make any sense at all are predicated on the idea that the buildings should not have collapsed as they did from the aircraft attacks alone. From an engineering standpoint, I would say those arguments are accurate. However, they also predicate the conspiracy aspect on the premise that the setting of implosive charges would have taken far longer than the few hours after the attacks that would have been available. That is a false premise.

I find absurd your declaration as fact that "911 was years in the planning, before this administration was in power, but some of the administration's key players could have been involved in the planning." It is foolish in the extreme to make such a statement unless you have direct knowledge, in which case you should be taking it a prosecutir, not slthering it all over some unrelated website. What you mean to say is that you believe that's what happened, and that's fine. Some people believe that crop circles are made by space aliens, while others of us know who makes them and how. Some people believed that overflights of the B2 bomber back in the 1980s constituted proof of extraterrestrial craft, while others knew that it was simply a new aircraft in testing.

UB, upin re-reading the post above, your Watson article is exactly what I was rebutting previously when I posted the news snippet that mentioned, as I had previously recollected, that Building 7 had been reported to be in bad shape all day, that there had been a large bulge (evidence of serious tructural failure) noted hours before the collapse, and that rescuers had been ordered evacuated from that area more than an hour prior to the collapse. The evacuations were ordered because it was being reported that the building was on the verge of collapse. The idea that a scripted newscast had been provided to a foreign news service and that it was being adhered to regardless of developments on the ground in one of the most laughable things that I have heard thus far, but it goes to demonstrate that extent to which common sense goes out the window when people get spooked by alleged conspiracies. Stuff like this does nothing but discredit those who uncover real conspiracies that actually make sense.

Originally Posted by WhatMattersMost

If, I say IF, the government was going to pull off such a crime, it would be so much cleaner than the wild stuff claimed in these theories.

The same was thought with regard to the agenda based Iraq invasion authored in the 90's and carried forth by our selected president. It always looks cleaner and better on paper. They needed a reason to incite the anger of Americans and what better way to do it by making us think that we are under attack.

I stick to my theory that Clinton was never supposed to be elected and that his second term really delayed the process of overthrowing Sadaam and owning those oil fields. The only way to ensure that the dems did not retain power was to dig up the dirt and create a scandal that would send the republican masses to the polls. It is no accident that Jr. "won" the election.

Additionally, Sadaam was in the process of converting to the Euro system which would have devalued the dollar in a way that it would become worthless. There is a lot of unknowns behind the current mess, what I do know is that this was all planned in the 90's and Bush 41 was supposed to get 2 terms and Jr was supposed to succeed him. While I am no Clinton fan, his 2 terms served to delay Bush/Cheney, Wolfowicz, Pearl, Rumsfeld invasion and the mess we are in today.

Strange. You make the power behind the power all but omnipotent, then don't allow for it to be able to prevent a victory by a governor from a backward state who was so dirty that he could have been taken out of the equation at any point in time.

This is exactly the problem that I have with common folks espousing conspiracy theories. There is no internal consistency. Folks, if you're going to try to wade into such murck waters, you had better at least have a set of rules and measures to apply. I work in the sciences where rules cannot be bent without consequences. You can't bend them to fit your premise. Rather, your premise or theory must accommodate the existing laws and postulates. So you can't have a shadow group that emplaces Presidents on one hand, yet fails to emplace their boy on the other hand, PARTICULARLY for two successive elections. The idea is sheer folly.

Once you start bending reality to fit your preconceived notions, you have fallen out of the realm of research and into the realm of pure fantasy. It is very dangerous when that starts happening, as is proven time and time again by the examples provided by history.

I am not saying that there are not intrigues twenty-three layers deep in the halls of power. I am simply saying that uncovering them is more an exercise in fact and reason than in fantasy roleplaying.

Originally Posted by PinestrawGuys

Well, that poked a stick into the hornet's nest!

Is it not possible that the 'whacko' theories like cruise missiles, RC planes and space beams are nothing more than 'psy-ops' designed to discredit anyone not toeing the official storyline?

It is rumored that the Towers were going to have to come down and that they knew this back in 1989. There is a report found here that discusses it.

http://www.plaguepuppy.net/public_html/ ... _App_D.pdf

Have fun, folks!!

It's possible that the ENTIRE "Bush done it!" hokum is psy-ops. Have you considered that?

Pinestraw, if you and I were able to sit down over a beer or two and pick through these claims one by one, I could explain to you the failings of each and point out those few that remain credible. I don't have time to lay out five-plus years of reading a research in a series of posts on a chat site.

Originally Posted by MW

Honestly, I'm a little shocked regarding some of the postings in this thread. CG is right, people with nothing better to do with their time stay up late nights to dream these conspiracy theory scenarios up. It just surprises me that so many people take the bait, hook, line, and sinker. I guess some of us are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

No matter what we personally think of President Bush, he doesn't have as black a heart as some would have us believe. There is no way on Gods green earth he deliberately murdered 5,000 American men, women, and children to further an agenda and there is no evidence to substantiate such an outrageous claim.

Thank you MW. I agree with you 100%