Thread: Barack Obama's citizenship questioned

Originally Posted by HighlanderJuan

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

If I need to publish an expose of the "birthers", I will. ALIPAC's focus is against illegal immigration. Anyone attempting to hijack it for any other cause needs to stop and think hard. If I'm wrong about this, I will apologize, but I will summon the mods for judgement here.

With all due respect, I thought this forum was identified as "Barack Obama's citizenship questioned" and I thought that was the topic we were addressing. I think the topic Natural Born Citizenship falls within the category of citizenship, and having a usurper hijack the White House would be a high crime worthy of discussion.

Is there something deeper going on that I should be aware of, or is it that you just don't care for the findings so far?

With members of Obamas own cabinet making remarks that he is an immigrant, and it is precisely his status that we are debating here, I believe it does fall under the category of immigration issues. IF at the end of the day, the worse scenario is found to be true, and Obama is an illegal immigrant, then this could be the biggest illegal immigration story of all time.

As I have mentioned many times before, I actually hope these stories are fictitious. I would rather skip the riots and chaos that would follow if they are true. The problem is there are so many conflicting stories with sound evidence behind them. The STRONGEST PIECE OF ALL IS THE STRENGTH OF OBAMA'S FIGHT TO KEEP HIS RECORDS FROM BEING ACCESSED. These are not the actions of a man with nothing to hide.

This story is getting so outrageous that I think I want to bid on the book and movie rights.

Nobody can make this stuff up.

I am not pointing any fingers in this thread...but I would like to remind everyone we are all on the same side in this forum...Obama's birthright citizenship is a very controversial subject and everyone has a right to their own opinion and the right to debate it, thanks to the information everyone is providing in here.

But one of alipac's rules is NO PERSONNEL Attacks, do not single out anyone person because of their opinion please, they have a right to it.

If attacks on a personnel level continue I guarantee you William will pull this thread!

Remember: UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL and we are going to need to be UNITED in the coming year....we have a huge fight ahead of us.

Thanks!! SOSAD

I'm going to weigh in on the side of BR as far as some of the "birther loon" element. I think that there's unsavory history to some of the people advancing the more exotic claims about Obama being born in Kenya, or having a father whose last name wasn't Obama.

The sensationalistic claims being made -- so far without much proof to support them -- are drowning out what is a very REAL issue about two major party presidential candidates not meeting Natural Born Citizen eligibility criteria, and using the very simple framework of what is known about them as far as their own admissions.

As far as ALI-PAC relevance, I think it's inherent in the body of law under discussion. It's all about the definition of NBC, and about the 14th Amendment defining citizenship, and the statutory schemes which govern citizenship, nationals, naturalization and legal residency.

Originally Posted by MinutemanCDC_SC

But SCOTUS isn't buying it. Ask Leo Donofrio. Ask Cort Wrotnowski.

The Supreme Court Justices take cases in which
1. they want to settle Constitutional questions,
or in which
2. they are willing to mediate disputes between parties.
Mainly the former.

I think that the Court didn't want to meddle in an issue at a time that it remained a "political question" with other arms of government charged with responsibility. Once the Electoral College and the Congress have had their "say" about casting ballots, confirming vote counts and challenging eligibility (if anyone so chooses), the "political question" impediment to court action gets removed.

Originally Posted by MinutemanCDC_SC

Originally Posted by FreedomFirst

A birth outside the U.S. -- which I give only about 5% chances of actually being the case if an original certificate shows up -- would simply seal the deal on his most likely not being a citizen at birth, at all.

Anything you or I say is mere conjecture at this point. Phil Berg says he is "1000% sure" that Barack Obama II was born in Kenya. The Hon. Rep. Nancy Pelosi has sworn an oath that Barack Obama II is Constitutionally qualified, i.e., he was born on U.S. soil, and the Hon. Ms. Pelosi should know. To my knowledge, ex-Sen. Obama has said absolutely nothing, and he is paying three law firms hundreds of thousands of dollars to make sure nothing leaks out. Enough said.

Agreed that "nobody knows for sure" .... my gut sense is that an original BC is going to show birth in Hawaii and a variety of name changes for Barack Obama relating to his mother's divorces, remarriages, and his own adoption(s). It's Standard Operating Procedure in many states to enter amended information, often in handwriting, right on the face of birth certificates. So if he was born Dunham and later got the names Obama and Soetoro, the original is going to have a lot of "footprints" with names, dates and initials of the official entering the new data. There's one thing that is flaky in the timeline, and makes me think he might have started out as "Dunham", and that is the Public Record Act disclosure out of the State of Washington's University of Washington pointing to Stanley Ann Dunham's enrollment in FALL of 1961 at the UW. The e-mail with that revelation was located on a Wikipedia "back page" where researchers collaborate on information in order to decide what to publish on the Wiki main page. I put it in this thread earlier, but here's a repeat:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki?title=Talk ... .2FWhen.3F

Supposedly, there is information from U of Washingto that points to enrollments as follows:

From: pubrec@u.washington.edu

Ms. Stanley Ann Dunham was enrolled at the University of Washington for:

Autumn 1961 Winter 1962 Spring 1962

The records responsive to your request from the University of Washington are above as provided by the Public Disclosure Laws of Washington State. This concludes the University’s response to your Public Records request. Please feel free to contact our office if you have any questions or concerns.

Madolyne Lawson Office of Public Records


And then there is information from U of Hawaii Manoa that says this:

From: Stuart Lau [stuartl@hawaii.edu]

The University of Hawaii at Manoa is only able to provide the following information for Stanley Ann Dunham:

Dates of attendance:
Fall 1960 (First day of instruction 9/26/1960)
Spring 1963 - Summer 1966
Fall 1972 - Fall 1974
Summer 1976
Spring 1978
Fall 1984 - Summer 1992

Degrees awarded:
BA - Mathematics, Summer 1967 (August 6, 1967)
MA - Anthropology, Fall 1983 (December 18, 1983)
PhD - Anthropology, Summer 1992 (August 9, 1992)

Sincerely, Stuart Lau
Stuart Lau University Registrar Office of Admissions and Records University of Hawaii at Manoa :

It raises the questions of
why is her last name "Dunham" and not "Obama" if she got married before Barack was born?
and why was she in SCHOOL so SOON after Barack was born?
and up in Seattle?
and did she fly from Hawaii to Seattle? or from somewhere else?
and where was HE?
and who cared for him while she was in class?

Or did she fly into Seattle, visit friends to show off the new baby (newspaper accounts confirm she was there) and enroll/register on a whim but never attend classes? Did she take advantage of having applied out of h.s. to UW to enter as a deferred enrollment, using the name on an original application from 1960 when (maybe) she planned to stay in Seattle and let her parents move to Hawaii without her?

A published article by a newspaper pointed to her attending UW for spring semester of 1962 and possibly dropping out because it was "too much" with a baby, but it never mentioned the UW information about the Fall '61 enrollment.

Originally Posted by MinutemanCDC_SC

But the Supreme Court can just say the word and demand discovery of Barack Obama II's birth document in the vault at the Div. of Vital Statistics, Hawaii State Dept. of Health. If ex-Sen. Obama stiffarms the Supreme Court in the same way that he has stiffed everyone else, that will be a severe career-limiting move, and the court will get the document anyway.

Any court order will prompt the Hawaii DOH to produce the birth certificate, and it doesn't necessarily have to come from SCOTUS. The DOH sent an e-mail demanding a retraction to the Sonoran newspaper in Arizona, which had published a story claiming that BO's BC was "sealed" by Hawaii. The DOH said that they had not sealed it, but they simply couldn't release it "unless" .... and then they gave a list of situations which would prompt them to release it. One of those was a court order, telling them to do so. The lawsuit that is heading to the State of Washington's Supreme Court has a pending motion requesting the court to issue such an order to Hawaii; Steve Pidgeon has advised that his plaintiffs would accept a delay to their en banc hearing if it was for the purposes of allowing that order to go out, and get the BC back from Hawaii.

Originally Posted by MinutemanCDC_SC

Whatever is hidden in that vault is enough to sink his ship, or he would not have spent $500,000, $800,000, $400,000, or even $10,000 playing keep-away with a piece of paper he can retrieve for $10. You may sleep soundly with the knowledge that ex-Sen. Obama cannot release that document and ride out the storm that will follow. As soon as the Supreme Court demands that he present his creds, the jig is up, and Barack Obama is history.

Count on it. Take it to the bank. Go to Vegas with it.

Frankly, I think just the weight of the LAW and the known facts are enough to sink any claim to NBC eligibility, if only a court will step up to address the merits of the main legal issue. There are all kinds of numbers floating around about how much Obama might have spent, but I'm just not seeing where people are getting them. The DNC appears to have stepped in for the Berg case, but there was no Obama defendant named in Donofrio's or any of the SOS cases. So, no pleadings needed to be filed by Obama lawyers. It's disquieting to find Donofrio flying the coop and only Berg's cases now before SCOTUS because I was far more impressed by Donofrio's matter-of-fact (no "sensationalism") approach. Since SCOTUS has the research he produced, one hopes they might employ it even in deciding Berg's cases.

You can attend college in absentia, correspondence courses or exchange student. Just because they say she was enrolled, does not mean she was phsycally at school.

Also, have y'all seen this? Looks like Globe Magazine has picked up the Obama news. Remember, consider the sorce.

http://www.globemagazine.com/story/286



Don't discredit this Gossip Mag for one simple reason, this is going to be in the faces of Americans at grocery stores and news stands across the nation. Maybe enough Americans will catch onto the importance of why Obama's citizenship should be verified before he takes office.

Obama Under Fire!

PRESIDENT-elect Barack Obama is being hit by shocking charges - it's against the law for him to take office because he isn't a "natural-born" U.S. citizen! A stunning lawsuit by a former government official claims the 47-year-old politician was actually born in Kenya, which would disqualify him from office. GLOBE's Special Report rips the lid off the simmering controversy. It's must reading for every American!

Dixie

I'm not saying people shouldn't discuss it, only that it is not any sort of litmus test for ALIPAC standing. We also discuss H-1Bs and Indian tech immigration, but I would never dream of asking ALIPAC to devote resources to that issue. For one thing, it's not ALIPAC's issue, for another, there are other organizations already doing that. I remember someone early on urging W to jump on the Obama citizenship issue. I'm relieved that didn't happen. If and when verified facts come out, then that would be the time.

All the state of Hawaii has to do is verify that he was born there, then case closed. All those other issues don't change his citizenship status.

I think we need to huddle and think about how to carry forth our issues in the new, admittedly liberal, political environment. It's a new ballgame, to be sure.

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

All the state of Hawaii has to do is verify that he was born there, then case closed. All those other issues don't change his citizenship status.

His parents both have to be American citizens for him to be NBC.

Originally Posted by HighlanderJuan

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

All the state of Hawaii has to do is verify that he was born there, then case closed. All those other issues don't change his citizenship status.

His parents both have to be American citizens for him to be NBC.

And the truly interesting thing is that, if the records were to be revealed and it turned out that his mother was SINGLE and his birth was in Hawaii, then he would have been a Natural Born Citizen at birth.

It raises a question about why his own website maintains that his parents were married, and that he acquired dual citizenship due to the father when MEANWHILE Michelle Obama was quoted last July as saying that his mother was "very young and very single" when she had Obama.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 93601.aspx

BUT, if it turned out that there was a later disruption of citizenship -- Indonesia and traveling on an Indonesian passport after reaching legal adult age or the like -- then it would raise the question of what citizenship does he enjoy TODAY? Did he come under an obligation to get his status as an American citizen straightened out with the U.S. State Department?

It's my understanding that he might travel abroad nowadays, as a Senator, on a special passport which might not have required much more in the way of proof than a Certification of Live Birth. Likely this would be due to the presumptions that would have attached to what he would have been believed to have proven to local/state party leaders in Illinois to run for his elected office. (And we know how solidly that stuff must get vetted after watching this story unravel, right?)

No, not if he was born in Honolulu.