Thread: Barack Obama's citizenship questioned

Originally Posted by Dixie

Here are the image files of the divorce decree, from Plains Radio. You may enlarge each one with a click. As you see, there are no pages marked 8 through 11. Just 1 through 7, plus 12.

www.plainsradio.com/obama1.html?ChallengeResponse=noobama2009

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http://www.plainsradio.com/obama1/IMAG006.JPG
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Good. I have no problem with illegitimate offspring, only with irresponsible parents. But an illegitimate offspring in the White House would make birth out of wedlock exemplary - even, dare i say, "Presidential"?

Imagine explaining to to your daughter the necessity of waiting for marriage before having children, so as to avoid an illegitimate birth. How would you deal with her response, "Well, it was good enough for Pres. Obama to make it to the White House!"

That marriage also eliminates one more rabbit trail I've been wasting time tracking. A U.S. birth to a natural born citizen unwed mother was especially troublesome fitting into a truth table, and not just because of the awkward geometry it created.

Originally Posted by U.S. Immigration Laws

8 USC § 1409. Children born out of wedlock

(a) The provisions of paragraphs (c), (d), (e), and (g) of section 1401 of this title, and of paragraph (2) of section 1408 of this title, shall apply as of the date of birth to a person born out of wedlock ...

Originally Posted by HighlanderJuan

A bit dated, but here's an interesting video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecbbt72fKyo

That's a great video HJ.....very nicely done and put together.

I would LOVE to see the same people put something similar together....encouraging Americans to demand answers......and try to run it like a campaign ad would be run.

Of course, chances are that it wouldn't make it to any network stations like NBC, etc. but there are a zillion stations out there and it's quite possible that it would be picked up and run by some of them.

It's times like this when a wealthy benefactor would come in handy to come forward and rent a channel.....like obama did with his campaign informercial ......where all of this could be presented THAT way.

Just ran across this item, and it explores the very interesting comments made in the Parliament of Kenya on the day after Obama was elected.

There is a link to a PDF which appears to be their version of our Congressional Record, recording debate and remarks in their legislative body.

http://art2sect1clause5.blogspot.com/20 ... ments.html

[quote]Monday, December 29, 2008
Kenya's Influence with Obama - Parliament's own words

Our Framers inserted “Natural Born Citizenâ€

The document says they were married on Feb. 2, 1961 and Obama was born 6 months later (counting fingers like a chruch lady) Aug. 4, 1961.

Dixie

Yes, everything I've seen says that he was conceived - but not born - out of wedlock. And, the Obamas didn't stay together very long at all.

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

Yes, everything I've seen says that he was conceived - but not born - out of wedlock. And, the Obamas didn't stay together very long at all.

I think that they never got married and that the date provided in the divorce decree, and even the pursuit of a divorce at all, was simply a "covering over" of an illegitimate birth and possibly a way of cutting off any chance that there might be financial claims by Obama in the event he wanted to argue that there was a common law marriage. By 1964, he might have also taken up with Ruth, the woman in Boston who followed him back to Africa and married him there.

Referring to that Wiki backpage link where the researchers compare notes and argue with each other about who is putting what into the composite biography, and where they sourced their information ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki?title=Talk ... .2FWhen.3F

It's pretty clear that they don't think Stanley Ann ever married Barack Sr. and their review of media articles shows that they think the media is also aware that Obama was not born of a legitimate marriage.

It's interesting that Obama supporters appear to have registered late in the game as wiki contributors and started submitting nominations for the article about Ann Dunham to be deleted entirely.

delete article
I want to re-nominate this article for deletion. She is not notable. ObamaGirlMachine (talk) 01:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Support deleting. Not notable and there is no reason to think the person this article is about will be notable in the future WP:NOTCRYSTAL. Being mentioned a few times by the media doesn't make you notable. I'm using this same argument for all biography articles being nominated for deletion that are related to Barack Obama, it's clear that Michelle Obama is the only notable person given an article, the others all seem to be fluff. QuirkyAndSuch (talk) 01:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Note - ObamaGirlmachine (above) is a problematic and potentially disruptive new WP:SPA account that has been canvassing others to come to this and other pages in an attempt to delete articles for Obama family members. Suggest speedy closure if these articles are nominated. - Wikidemo (talk) 17:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
As Josiah notes, a TIME Magazine cover story quashes any "notability" argument for deletion, and the independent notabilty barrier for WP:SS spinouts isn't very high anyway. No way is this article going to be deleted. Andyvphil (talk) 19:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Oppose deleting. I think that she is notable based on her being the primary long-term formative care giver of candidate Sen. Obama. Her life, upbringing, beliefs and major lifetime experiences are part of the story of Sen. Obama. --TGC55 (talk) 01:27, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Not happening, and this wouldn't be the way to go about considering it anyway. Tvoz/talk 02:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is the part where they come up short in finding any evidence of a marriage license, and in other locations I've also seen speculation that Ann Dunham might not have been of legal age which might have been 20 back in 1961. (The marriage statutes in force now allow 18 as the legal age.)

Defining who she is
There is some merit in deletion of an article about a woman who is dead and for whom we have very little verifiable information short of a candidate for an important political office. The latest from his book about her being terrifically religious just does not ring true IMO. But what else do we have? Observations from a divorced spouse? Student7 (talk) 12:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

They're both dead too. But it wasn't in his book that Obama said his mother was religious -- only when campaigning in the Bible Belt. Andyvphil (talk) 14:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Without trying to impugn the candidate, that observation seems less than scholarly to me. I would like to see it removed. Student7 (talk) 00:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article contradicts itself regarding marriage to Obama Sr.
The first paragraph of the "First Marriage" section states that, "the couple was married on February 2, 1961... " and then the last paragraph in the same section states that, "no evidence has yet been presented to show they were ever married." So, which is it? It seems to me that encyclopedic content must not only be verifiable, it ought not contradict itself. Maybe it could be re-worded to state that they were allegedly wed, but no evidence exists (really? Anyone check with Maui records?).Techwritrr (talk) 23:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)techwritrr

It looks like 65.8.69.15 decided to mess with that section for no good reason. Another editor has already fixed the problem. --M@rēino 03:23, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
While it does not reflect on her child, it is clear to the media that Dunham was never married the "first" time. They always say that "there was no record of their marriage/divorce" when referring to this arrangement.

This leaves Wikipedia, who always needs proof of being the only game in town that is pretending that there ever was a marriage in the first place. The son does not wish to look at this too closely. That is understandable.
Obama Sr. was reputedly married in his home nation so it would have been bigamy if they had married. I really don't know what to do here, but the current language of pretending their was a first marriage is wearing a bit thin, since we're the only ones doing that. Then referring to her "two" ex-husbands. How about the two ex-fathers? At least that would be accurate. Student7 (talk) 11:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Good luck with that. You can bet a billion dollars there are paid campaign staffers looking at this wikipedia article hourly. 76.229.171.85 (talk) 15:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, you are right there! You'd think that some reporter would mosey down to the courthouse. They must either have a record there or no record. I assume that all research has come up empty-handed which is why it "can't be verified." Student7 (talk) 13:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
"And then there was a problem with your father’s first wife. He had told me that they were separated. But it was a village wedding, so there was no legal document that could show a divorce." - Dreams from my Father.
Ann was apparently under 18 when she became pregnant. It's my understanding that the age at which a woman could contract marriage in Hawaii was still 20 at that time.
I saw a supposed quote from Obama's book that said that he "didn't want to look too closely" at his mother's first marriage, suggesting that he suspected that she wasn't really married but really didn't want to know either, somewhat understandably. If someone can come up with the exact quote, I think I will change the article so it doesn't mention her "first marriage." Make it marriage-independent. Student7 (talk) 18:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Now that it's clear that the Obama campaign released a fake birth certificate--with campaign spokesman Ben LaBolt insisting it was real[1]--many people are wondering if perhaps Sen. Obama doesn't want people to see something on his real (and complete) birth record. Speculations on what that might be range from the possibility that his parents weren't married, to his place of birth not being Hawaii, to political strategy (to waste time of those who are concerned about his credibility).
For a sitting senator to perpetrate a fraud for political gain would not be new (and taking note of it is not the point of Wikipedia), but the relevant point is that it would impact this article a great deal. Already, there's no marriage license or other direct info on Dr. Dunham's marriage, and likewise, only fake documentation has been provided of her son's birth, so it highlights the fact that this article makes unsupported (unverifiable) claims--and we might soon discover that some are, additionally, incorrect.
And I'm not stupid...I recognize that the Obama campaign staff has folks watcing this site, ready to vandalize the site. But that doesn't mean we should stop fighting to do things right 68.83.72.162 (talk) 08:14, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I could understand your conspiratorial tones if there were just some reason for Obama to be lying. But, much like the McCain birth certificate conspiracy, this one falls on its face once you realize that Congress defines the term "natural born Citizen" and has zero interest in disqualifying either of these candidates. --M@rēino 15:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
These are the facts as I understand them: The birth certificate is real. You go to the county courthouse, and you get a printout in whatever the currently-used format is. (As a point of interest...if you apply for a passport, the 'original' birth certificate isn't good enough if it's an 'old version' - you have to get a new copy.) The marriage was real (Obama was understandably reluctant to embarrass his mother, or more likely his grandmother and sister, by providing the date which was less than nine months before Barack was born). It wasn't bigamy because his father's village marriage was undocumented and wouldn't have been recognized in Hawaii. The divorce is real. (People who insist on believing in various conspiracy theories are also real, unfortunately.) Flatterworld (talk) 16:56, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
I think we've gone a bit further here than the original topic. I think the only problem originally was whether his parents were married at all, not whether Obama was born in Hawaii. It is true that his parents claimed to be married on such and such a date on their divorce application. The reality of the first marriage seems doubtful, which is no big deal in itself but of interest to the article. Documenting the "first" marriage as fiction is not without editorial problems however, which is why it hasn't been done. Student7 (talk) 22:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Unmarried mother + birth in Hawaii would = natural born citizen. British Nationality Act of 1948 assumed children took their father's citizenship only if there was a marriage in place by the date of birth.

The back talk page of Wiki was also grappling with one article by David Maraniss

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 79_pf.html

that claimed Ann Dunham went to visit old friends in Seattle in fall 1962, and three other pieces of evidence that the visit was in fact in fall 1961, with one of the pieces being that e-mail from UW claiming she enrolled herself in classes for Fall 1961, and others being reports from Seattle newspapers.

A biographer named Mendell gets quoted a lot at this link,

http://www.christianfaithandreason.com/obama6.html

and he points to 1961, based on an interview with one of her Seattle friends.

Obama biographer David Mendell reports that Barack Obama Senior rented a small one floor house near the campus of the University of Hawaii around this time, ostensibly as a home for his young wife and their new son. It's not clear how much time the Barack Obama Senior family spent there together living under the same roof. (36)

On at least one occasion, very shortly after the birth of Barack Obama Junior, friends of Stanley Ann Dunham recall her visiting them in Seattle with her new born baby, Barack Obama Junior.

Susan Blake, another high school classmate, said that during a brief visit in 1961, Dunham was excited about her husband's plans to return to Kenya "We all had June Cleaver as our role models, and she was blazing new trails for herself," said Blake, a former Mercer Island city councilwoman. (37)

Blake recalls that Dunham, who was calling herself Ann Obama at the time, visited her at her house in Mercer Island during the last week of August, 1961.

She left Honolulu just as soon she had clearance from her doctor to travel with her new baby. He was just 3 weeks old. She had sent a postcard that she would be in town, and was staying with a friend of her mother's. She drove out to my house in her mother�s friend's car, and we spent the entire day together. She was very excited about her new life, and her husband. She was nuts about him, crazy in love. I was under the impression that he had left Honolulu before Barack's birth, that he had gone to Harvard already for his studies, and that Ann was on her way to join him there. She planned on raising her son, getting a job, and attending school, she told me. Her husband would head back to Kenya after graduating from Harvard to join the newly formed government, and she would take her place beside him. It was all very exciting, a dramatic change in her life in the one year since she had graduated from high school. (3

If the mother wasn't married and if the birth was in Hawaii, he's home free as a natural born citizen.

The interesting thing is that his autobiography finds Obama saying that the details of his parent's marriage is "murky" and he points also to a date in 1960 as being when they got married. It wouldn't have cost much to file a request for a copy of the marriage license and certificate over on Maui, if he wanted to. A personal accounting like that points to somebody who glosses over the truth, when it's politically inconvenient. At the time he wrote "Dreams" he was just starting to get into politics, and he probably had no aspirations to POTUS. He probably just wanted to present himself as having married parents to make himself more politically acceptable, or for the sake of what he'd tell kids when he had them.

I don't see why it would make a difference as to his citizenship if they WERE married. If some old British law kicks in to allow you British citizenship because your parents got married, why would authorities over here care? It's American law that defines American citizenship, not some other country's.

That said, an interesting point is being raised here. How could Obama Sr.'s marriage to Stanley Ann be valid if he already had a wife in Africa? Which he did, Kezia.

..Bill Cunningham: "..YOU are a GREAT American.."..!!


Like Kevin James, he's an attorney AND a former Federal Prosecutor..

..so they KNOW what they're talking about..


Bill, like SO MANY other Radio Hosts..

..is getting TIRED of THE usurper,

Mafia Hussein, who's going OUT of his way..

..to HIDE information..!!



Says he MIGHT have attorney Philip Burg ( www.ObamaCrimes.com ) on, in his third hour..!!



Soo..

I HIGHLY recommend the Bill Cunningham Show..!

..on LIVE EVERY Sunday..

7-10pm PT/10pm-1am ET..

..and right NOW via:

(..one station that’s streaming it), click below..!

KNRS Stream

Bill ('Willie's) Page: http://700wlw.com/pages/onair_willie.html

He's got a regular daily show, this is his LIVE weekend edition..

That is a good article, put in plain view of millions of people we will never reach! It is two pages at the center fold of the paper, plus a 2/3 page front cover lead-in.

It proves to me that getting the facts straight is not beyond news writers and other mortal men. They only have to want to get the story right.


Phil Berg is now on WLW-700, Cincinnati, from midnight to 1 AM EST.
www.700wlw.com/cc-common/ondemand/player2.html?world=st

Here is a good debunking site about the various conjectures about Barack Obama's Constitutional qualifications for the Presidency.
tesibria.typepad.com/whats_your_evidence/2008/08/berg-complainta.html

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

I don't see why it would make a difference as to his citizenship if they WERE married. If some old British law kicks in to allow you British citizenship because your parents got married, why would authorities over here care? It's American law that defines American citizenship, not some other country's.

He would be a "plain vanilla" citizen of the U.S. but not a "natural born citizen" of the U.S. And to prove that American authorities over here DO CARE, please read the following from our own U.S. State Department:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_t ... _1753.html

The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad.

At a VFW Memorial Day event many years ago, I was amazed to hear stories from older Vets who had fought in WW II and who had been born to immigrants from European countries. They reported that they had gotten draft notices from Hitler and Mussolini, mailed to them in the U.S., and ordering them to report for duty in Germany and Italy! They had been born before their fathers had naturalized, and had gotten "dual" citizenship at birth, but were later naturalized on their fathers' paperwork. Apparently, before there was a rupture in diplomatic relations between the U.S. and the Axis powers, the authorities in those countries had kept track of emigrants and their offspring through their correspondence or financial support they sent back to relatives still living in the "old country" since rigid currency exchange laws kept track of U.S. money orders being exchanged into German or Italian currency. (Some of these older soldiers reported that both they and their fathers had gotten draft notices from their old European countries.) When these "immigrant sons" volunteered or got drafted for the American military, as the U.S. formally entered the war on behalf of the Allies, it appears that our country made some effort to inquire if any of its soldiers had received draft notices from hostile nations, and then tried to avoid overseas assignments that would put them back into their father's former "native" land. The reason is obvious. They were listed as "draft evaders" and, if captured as POWs, would face additional legal hazards and punishment beyond merely being POWs.

Even in peacetime, a dual national traveling abroad and charged with a crime is going to face special hazards. If the authorities in the country where he/she is arrested want to cause some real damage, they can choose to deport to a country with harsher laws or an agreement (usually tied to an extradition treaty) with the arresting country that lets a sentence imposed in one place get carried out in the other. In addition, the U.S. consulate or embassy staff is going to be "less interested" in helping out someone they regard as being only "half-American" and they will have internal procedures about which of two potential consulates or embassies should be the "go to" office for a dual citizen encountering a problem in a foreign country. People might not feel it's fair. That's their "personal view" but "personal" notions of what's fair, or what ought to be, don't carry much weight when they bump up against what laws say, and what practical realities are in busy offices with heavy caseloads.

American law is not necessarily the only law to define citizenship. American law itself recognizes that fact, or our own U.S. State Department wouldn't be putting out public information like you see linked.

Originally Posted by BetsyRoss

That said, an interesting point is being raised here. How could Obama Sr.'s marriage to Stanley Ann be valid if he already had a wife in Africa? Which he did, Kezia.

Tribal African villages are primitive places where marriages don't find people taking out marriage licenses or other paperwork. Without a piece of paper -- and "assuming" that Obama ever married Dunham, which I'm starting to doubt quite seriously -- then Dunham would have had absolutely nothing to prove to a court of law that Barack Senior was a bigamist, or that she was entitled to a legal annulment. By the time she and her parents were seeking out a lawyer, the advice might have been this:

1. Formal divorce would "legitimate" the son from the Dunham-Obama union. That might have been important in the 1960's when unwed mothers were packed off to special homes for unwed mothers or sent to live with distant relatives, out of shame.
2. The formal divorce pleadings could reference a date when they thought they were married, or when Dunham wanted to "invent" a marriage, and nobody would demand to see the actual license. (There are posters claiming to be lawyers on various message boards who report that a lot of jurisdictions rely on sworn statements in divorce petitions and don't check up on licenses. Still others are asking if one of the four missing pages of the court documents that Plains Radio got might be a copy of a marriage certificate.)
3. Formal divorce would cut off any claim that Obama Sr. might try to make on Dunham family assets, with a later claim of a common law marriage.
4. Formal divorce would cut off any attempt Obama Sr. might make to gain U.S. citizenship through his relationship with Dunham, whether it was a claim of a "real" marriage (if it ever happened) or a "common law" marriage (which birth of a child would help "prove" if alleged).

Whatever Obama is, natural born or not, it is certain that there are two things he is not. OPEN. Not. TRANSPARENT. Not.