Thread: Actual Discussion

I was reading some of the posts that are already up, and the ALIPAC administrator said that as long as I don't break the rules, I am able to debate the topic of illegal immigration and not be kicked out with the "troll label." So, in an attempt to better comprehend, if not, make you comprehend the serious issue of illegal immigration, here I go.

I believe that some of the core problems and solutions of illegal immigration have already been thoroughly covered. For example, all Americans know that illegal immigrants cost social services, and all Americans want the border secured. Nobody is arguing with that. But you all cannot tell me that the view of the vast majority of members in this website represents the views of all nor most Americans.

Everytime I see an illegal immigrant being described on this website, they are narcotic, felons, rapists, and most rediculously to me, they are one and the same with terrorists. Not one time have I read them to be hard working people who are just looking for a better life. I will be the first to admit that there are illegal immigrants who are drug dealers, ect, but you and me know that the vast majority of them are people who you would welcome into your community had they been born here.

I am a Mexican-American, so of course I want the best for my country. But you cannot see the issue of illegal immigration as black or white. You cannot see it as either "right" or "wrong." And you cannot see me as either member or "troll." Some of the solutions of the illegal immigration crisis is being rationalized with the simple notion that "illegal means illegal." This little cliche is the reasoning that is used to deport people, separate families, refused financial assistance to those that have lived since such a young age that they dont remember their homeland, and even to create arguement that the kids of illegal immigrants do not belong here either. How can you say that?! Since when do kids have to pay the price because of the mistakes of their parents? Kids who were born here are being told they are not American??!! If that is your case, then what is an American?

I know that as soon as I post this, if I am not kicked out for bringing out the other side of the story, most of you will, in short, tell me that illegal immigrants cost too much money and drive down wages. I will accept this and believe it because it is true, but then you must accept the truth that the majority of illegal immigrants are just looking for a better life, that the majority love this country, that the majority will do ANYTHING to have the priviledge of living and working in this country, that many illegal immigrants have kids that are serving their country in the armed forces, and, in my case, they are starting businesses and reconstructing neighborhoods in thier communities.

So this is where I stand. Secure the border, and know who is in this country. If this is achieved, give those people who have been living here so long the opportunity to EARN residency or citizenship. Remember, America is the land of opportunity, so what is wrong with giving them a chance to pay the consequences, then earn their status without having to resort to mass deportations?

But as I am sure, most of you will not see where I am coming from. But if you actually went to Mexico and saw their poverty, you would understand why it is that people cross rivers, deserts, and leave their families and homeland. You would also realize how fortunate we are to live in this country even if you are earning minumum wage, know no english, work endless hours, taken advantange by your boss, cannot see your family back home, and living on alert for "la migra."

You say you've been reading the posts here.

I suggest that you read some more, since everything in your post has been discussed here repeatedly.

Most of us here are tired of going around and around the same ground.

It does not matter if the illegal aliens are hard workers. This has nothing to do with how hard they work. When that is said, the implied statement is that Americans are not hard workers and lazy and that is insulting.

The reason we must send illegal aliens out of America is that there is no other way to truly stop what is happening.

No army and now wall and no army on a wall will stop the waves of humanity willing to overrun America unless we show that we are fair, and compassionate, but strong.

To many illegal aliens have confused America's compassion and generosity with being weak.

Only by sending illegal aliens back and encouraging them to return can we send the message to the world and the communities they came from that illegally immigrating to America will not be tolerated.

This was the case in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, and 60's in American and we did not have this problem.

Illegal aliens are more than welcome to take their families with them when they leave and I believe our officials have programs for that. Most of the time the families decline because they do not value family unity over their presence in America and the illegal will be right back in.

We must deport and we must reverse the flow. Anything less will result in the eventual deterioration of America into the kind of place many illegals want to escape.

We are fighting for our nation, our quality of life, and our very lives.

You cannot assure us that people who are willing to break into countries, steal identities, steal jobs and steal tax resources mean us no harm.

Even if a lot of illegal aliens are relatively harmless or "good people" there is no machine or technology possessed by man to make such a judgement.

We can only judge people based on what they do. For you to assume that most illegal aliens are just good hard working people is pure fluff. One could say the same about almost any group.

In America we do not celebrate or advocate lawless behavior and criminal acts. Most of those that do have money to gain or are supporting the illegals for racist reasons.

There is nothing more racist than to forgive the crimes of others because they share one's race.

Yes, it is true... most Americans want the illegal aliens OUT of OUR country and by the law, by the US Constitution, and by the will of the people, we have every right to expect that to happen and will work to that end.

I'm sure illegal aliens love their children and are often kind to animals as well, but that does not have a thing to do with this debate.

W

If you are truly here for discussion, most people on this board will be happy to discuss things with you. But, but the sake of all, let's keep this a civilized debate.

I happen to be (as you probably have already figured out) an AMERICAN Indian. I, personally, have no problem with immigration. I do get very tired of hearing that this is a nation of immigrants. I know of NO country in this whole world which has not been migrated into, colonized, or invaded. So, in truth, this entire world is a land of immigrants. Furthermore, the vast majority of the people in American for the past 2-5 generations are not immigrants - they are natives.

My biggest objection to illegal immigrants is this:

1. They broke the law by coming here illegally. We are supposed to be a "nation of laws", yet that law is not enforced and hasn't been for some time.

2. When it comes to Mexican illegal immigrants, I can truly understand wanting a better life for their families. But the question that I have to ask in this regard, is "why are they not fighting their own government for a better life in Mexico"? It's not like they're coming here because of religious, or idealogical persecution, like many peoples from Africa.

3. From everything I've read about Mexico, it has great natural resources, a wonderful tourist economy, and many natural wonders. Why do the people of Mexico continually allow their corrupt leadership to keep them in poverty?

4. I will tell you what made me angry about this illegal immigrant situation -- a very large group of people demonstrating in the streets of America about "their rights", and the fact that this country was taken from them. From a Cheyenne Indian, all I can say is "Get over it". The second thing that built my anger over this situation to a rage was when I found out that my grandson was unable to get his usual summer job because the contractor he'd been working for (for 3 summers) hired illegals for half the cost. This was a young man who worked his summers in order to be able to help pay for college.

5. I personally, am getting very tired of hyphenated Americans. Either you are an American or you are not. Are people suffering from such a massive identity crises that they have to define themselves by their ancestry. Let me ask you -- how often have you heard a German refer to themselves as a German-American, or someone from Poland as a Polish-American? I don't know that I ever have.

There is a wonderful video from a man by the name of Roy Beck who is with NumbersUSA showing what will happen to this country without controlled immigration.

I can't speak for the rest of the people on this board, but I can't believe that they view EVERY immigrant in the negative terms you describe. I think that most of them are angry that our government, which makes us obey the laws, turns a blind eye to this illegal immigrant issue.

Maybe they do speak out too harshly, but I'd bet that everyone of them would give a legal law abiding immigrant the shirt off of their back if the need arose.

Please don't paint us with the broad brush of ignorant racists, because that is so far from the truth, it might as well reside on Andromeda. I know many, many, many people whose ancestors emigrated to America (from a wide variety of places) and they are wonderful, hardworking, law-abiding individuals. But, they had the ethics to enter this country legally. It cost some of them a lot of money to do so.

Can you imagine their outrage at the idea of someone getting the equivalent of amnesty for breaking our law? If we are a nation of laws, then those laws should apply to all who are here. If not, then what use are the laws, if there is always an excuse to break them.

One last question for you -- when don't many of these people keep going to Canada? Why stop here in the US? Canada has a great system -- in some ways, it's much more apt to take care of it's citizens with it's government based healthcare etc.?

Thanks for dropping by. Say hi to my amigos.

To Chicano,

First of all, welcome aboard. I doubt you will get kicked off for your view, we do still have freedom of speech in this country, and everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

I am a Mexican-American, so of course I want the best for my country. But you cannot see the issue of illegal immigration as black or white

Secondly,
I disagree w/ your statement of illegal immigration not being "black or white". One thing you need to understand is, the American people and legal citizens are mad because illegal immigrants don't just break one law, they break many laws. While the majority of the illegal immigrants get away with breaking our laws by fleeing back to Mexico, or elsewhere.
ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL.
How can you say ILLEGAL is not black and white or right or wrong? ILLEGAL IS WRONG. LEGAL IS RIGHT.
Seems pretty black and white to me.
Don't be confused by the liberalists pukish and traitorous attitudes in which they claim there can be "middle ground" on this issue. There isn't a middle ground solution.

Thirdly,
You may want to do some more research because on all the web blogs and sites i've been to, NOT ONE PERSON has been against immigration as a whole. What the American people are against is the ILLEGAL immigration, and the immigrants who dont' want to become Americans or citizens.

You mention that you are a Mexican American, and that you want the best for your country. If you are a legal citizen of the US, THIS IS YOUR COUNTRY, NOT MEXICO.
If you are truly an American, it means you denounce your allegance to your former country, so you can assimilate into your new country.
Which means you are an American, NOT a Mexican American.
Describing yourself as a Mexican American illustrates you to have a dual citizenship allegance, and that cannot be done.
I'm not saying you shouldn't de-nounce your Mexican heritage.
But if you want to be a legal citizen of the US, you are an AMERICAN. You learn English, and you fly the American Flag in your yard, not the Mexican flag, you celebrate INDEPENDANCE DAY, not Cinco De Mayo.

It is regrettable that the good immigrants who actually do want a better life, are getting a bad rap, but your pointing blame in the wrong direction.

Just because a person wants a better life, doesn't justify breaking another country's laws. It doesn't matter if you're white, black, asian, hispanic, etc. NO ONE GETS TO BE ABOVE THE LAW.
Peace is the absence of conflict, and the abscense of conflict is obtained through LAW ENFORCEMENT.
So what part of the word ILLEGAL is not understood?

So, in closing, I want to ask you this. How do you explain LA RAZA? AZTLAN? LA RECONQUISTA?
Clearly these are groups who do not want to be citizens. They go under the obsurd assumption that we "STOLE" Mexico, and will do everything in their power to get it back.

The US didn't steal anything. We conquored Mexico, then we paid $18 Billion dollars for it. Now this $18B was paid in 1848.
Account for inflation at todays rates, that's probably about $300 billion the US would have paid. (I'm just taking a wild guess on the $300 bil statement)

Mexico has very strict immigration laws which are enforced daily.
Why does Mexico get to enforce their laws, and the US doesn't?

It is funny to see how you are trying to make me look. Kind to animals? This is exactly what I am talking about. You refuse to accept some of the facts that I have stated and instead try to refute it by making it seem like I am some idiot who has no idea what he is talking about. And what are you talking about when you say "nothing more racist than to forgive the crimes of others because they share one's race?" Aren't you, the moderator I assume, the one who is always reminding people that this issue is not about race but rather about legal status? C'mon. Help me out here. Or do you believe illegal immigrants should not be given a shot at citizenship because most are cruel to animals?

I want to have a DEBATE, and that means showing both sides. But it appears you are more interested at making corny jokes than to show actual relevance about this issue, which is all I am trying to do. If I have broken any rules let me know, but I have said nothing that is worse than what others have said.

Frankly, aside from the rapists, murderers, robbers, etc., I don't want the Mexican culture here.

Americans don't live 20 people to a house. Most of us don't have 15 cars in the driveway, the street, and the lawns of the houses.

WE SPEAK ENGLISH HERE. I have seen interviews with some 'immigrants' who have lived here for 15 years and still speak NO English.

If someone decides to apply for citizenship in America, they should assimilate into OUR culture - not make US assimilate to theirs.

The posts from ALIPAC, CheyenneWoman, and sippy look like debate to me.

Why not respond to them?

CountFloyd, I agree!

chicano, Sounds like you just don’t like the laws of the United State of America.

majority will do ANYTHING to have the priviledge of living and working in this country

Except apply and wait for permission from the United States Government to enter or work in the US.

that many illegal immigrants have kids that are serving their country in the armed forces

So do my children and they are not doing it to get back door citizenship for their military service. Also, they are not in Iraq tagging MS-13 gang signs all over the place. My children are doing it because we love this country and not to anchor themselves here.

so what is wrong with giving them a chance to pay the consequences, then earn their status without having to resort to mass deportations?

I agree, they should pay the consequences of breaking the law, it's called deportation. You earn status by applying for permission to enter the US from your homeland and wait for permission to do so. Otherwise you are a criminal and illegal alien and face the consequences of deportation.

Simple as that.

Dixie