Thread: Actual Discussion

Chicano wrote
Not one time have I read them to be hard working people who are just looking for a better life.


Thats because this site is about the facts of this issue. Not about giving credit to Law Breakers.

Chicano wrote

the majority will do ANYTHING to have the priviledge of living and working in this country,


Do you realize what your saying? If they will do ANYTHING, then when have`nt they gone through the legal channels?
Or, do you mean ANYTHING legal or illegal?

Originally Posted by andyt

Arizona85932, I agree with everything you said. I didn't know that Arizona had a day just for Hispanics at the fair. I know that Disneyland used to have a Fireman's night for firemen and their families but that was a tribute for their service. I don 't know of anything the Hispanics have done that would warrant a tribute that the larger(for the time being) culture is not entitled to as well.

Yup. They just did it at the last fair. I don't recall any other group having their own day. People complained about it to the Arizona Republic but no one did anything about it. I didn't go because I was upset.

Firefighters, police, and military are one thing but singling out one group of people and giving them a day because of their skin color is another. What would people say if they had Caucasian Day?

Originally Posted by arizona85032

Originally Posted by andyt

Arizona85932, I agree with everything you said. I didn't know that Arizona had a day just for Hispanics at the fair. I know that Disneyland used to have a Fireman's night for firemen and their families but that was a tribute for their service. I don 't know of anything the Hispanics have done that would warrant a tribute that the larger(for the time being) culture is not entitled to as well.

Yup. They just did it at the last fair. I don't recall any other group having their own day. People complained about it to the Arizona Republic but no one did anything about it. I didn't go because I was upset.

Firefighters, police, and military are one thing but singling out one group of people and giving them a day because of their skin color is another. What would people say if they had Caucasian Day?

ARIZONA
I've come to the conclusion that now is the time we begin to have "caucasion history month" - "caucasion day" - "celebrating caucasion inventions" - "famous caucasion people" - "a moment in caucasion history"

Did I forget anything?

I happen to be serious, btw.

Well here is my reply:
First off Mexican- American. That’s offensive right off the bat and states one of the issues. I am an American, Should I repeat I am an American, I believe in American Values, I believe that English is the language, I believe in god and Americans right to worship where and how they see fit. Now if you want to talk heritage then my ancestors were Swedish, Norwegian, Blackfoot Indian and German. But I am none of those things, I am an American. My ancestors fought to make this country what it is today. What if they would have run from the British to Mexico instead of fighting to make this country great? You see instead of all these countries peoples coming here for the American dream what should be happening is you all should be fighting for the Mexican dream. Brazilian dream or what ever other country dream you come from. I would bet right now if you all went back and became activist in your own countries and fought to make your own countries great there is not one person on this form that would not support your efforts.
But instead you flee your own crappy governments instead of fighting for change and burden our social services, schools and hospitals. My question is if your own countries are so great and you are so loyal to them why are you here? If LA Raza Is so great why do you have to come and steal the American’s dream. Are you all not men and women enough to build your own dreams. Instead of “the Race” maybe it should be “The Mouse” all your countries have a small amount of crooked politicians like Fox that hoard the wealth. Remove them from power, Set up your own constitution and get R Done. Don’t run and hide like children, stand and fight like men and take your countries back! Instead you take the easy way and act like little scared babies that have to have the light on. I don’t get it. But then I am an American.

What they should have done was had something set aside celebrating the diversity and history of the Southwestern region because it really is a beautiful place rich with culture and heritage. Don't get me wrong, I love where I live and we do have a great Spanish influence in our architecture, our cuisine, our style of clothing, our music, I could go on about how unique it is where I live; but other people contributed to this place and what people forget is once your foot crosses that border from Mexico into the United States you must obey the laws and respect the people who live here. It is a hodgepodge of cultures that have blended to make this magical place and if you've never been here you really need to. No one group is better or worse than another and no one should get special privilages because they think they have claim to this land when they do not. I don't care if you are black, white, mexican, indian, chinese, if your ancestors fought at the Alamo, or if you just raised your hand and became an American 10 seconds ago. Once you give preferential treatment to one person over another, America suffers and that is exactly what one particular group of people is asking. They feel that they have a right to be here and that makes them above the law. That it means they have a right to come and go as they please and answer to no one. They feel that the rest of us, even those of us who share their last names bend over backwards and look the other way while they walk all over us.

By the way, Chicano still hasn't answered my questions in the above post.

Originally Posted by 2ndamendsis

Originally Posted by arizona85032

Originally Posted by andyt

Arizona85932, I agree with everything you said. I didn't know that Arizona had a day just for Hispanics at the fair. I know that Disneyland used to have a Fireman's night for firemen and their families but that was a tribute for their service. I don 't know of anything the Hispanics have done that would warrant a tribute that the larger(for the time being) culture is not entitled to as well.

Yup. They just did it at the last fair. I don't recall any other group having their own day. People complained about it to the Arizona Republic but no one did anything about it. I didn't go because I was upset.

Firefighters, police, and military are one thing but singling out one group of people and giving them a day because of their skin color is another. What would people say if they had Caucasian Day?

ARIZONA
I've come to the conclusion that now is the time we begin to have "caucasion history month" - "caucasion day" - "celebrating caucasion inventions" - "famous caucasion people" - "a moment in caucasion history"

Did I forget anything?

I happen to be serious, btw.

I don't need a special day set aside to remind me of who I am. All I have to do is look in the mirror.

Just for referance Chicano, understand there are laws, they do exist, and they need to be enforced, period. If I go out and steal about $200.00 worth of jewelry from a local jewelers, do you think they'll let me keep it and pay for it in installments? Don't think so, first, I'd be arrested, the stolen items taken and given back to their rightful owner, then I would most likely sit in jail a minimum of several hours, maybe released. Then I would be given a court date, come before a judge, given some kind of sentence and penalty, and expected to follow that to the letter.

Now, lets see what will happen if I do not follow the judge's sentencing. I will have a warrant put out for me. If I am stopped, I will be re-arrested and sit in jail much longer, not be released till I see a judge, and given a stiffer sentence. This will continue till I have paid the penalties and fulfilled the courts demands. As a citizen, this is the way I expect the laws to apply and work, for everyone.

In that case, we have laws about illegal immigration. I expect them to be followed as much as I do for our civil laws. Here is a condensed copy of our laws from American Patrol:

Federal Immigration and Nationality Act
Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii)

"Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title 18 . . . imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both."

Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):

A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:

* assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or

* encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

* knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. Anyone employing or contracting with an illegal alien without verifying his or her work authorization status is guilty of a misdemeanor. Aliens and employers violating immigration laws are subject to arrest, detention, and seizure of their vehicles or property. In addition, individuals or entities who engage in racketeering enterprises that commit (or conspire to commit) immigration-related felonies are subject to private civil suits for treble damages and injunctive relief.

Recruitment and Employment of Illegal Aliens

It is unlawful to hire an alien, to recruit an alien, or to refer an alien for a fee, knowing the alien is unauthorized to work in the United States. It is equally unlawful to continue to employ an alien knowing that the alien is unauthorized to work. Employers may give preference in recruitment and hiring to a U.S. citizen over an alien with work authorization only where the U.S. citizen is equally or better qualified. It is unlawful to hire an individual for employment in the United States without complying with employment eligibility verification requirements. Requirements include examination of identity documents and completion of Form I-9 for every employee hired. Employers must retain all I-9s, and, with three days' advance notice, the forms must be made available for inspection. Employment includes any service or labor performed for any type of remuneration within the United States, with the exception of sporadic domestic service by an individual in a private home. Day laborers or other casual workers engaged in any compensated activity (with the above exception) are employees for purposes of immigration law. An employer includes an agent or anyone acting directly or indirectly in the interest of the employer. For purposes of verfication of authorization to work, employer also means an independent contractor, or a contractor other than the person using the alien labor. The use of temporary or short-term contracts cannot be used to circumvent the employment authorization verification requirements. If employment is to be for less than the usual three days allowed for completing the I-9 Form requirement, the form must be completed immediately at the time of hire.

An employer has constructive knowledge that an employee is an illegal unauthorized worker if a reasonable person would infer it from the facts. Constructive knowledge constituting a violation of federal law has been found where (1) the I-9 employment eligibility form has not been properly completed, including supporting documentation, (2) the employer has learned from other individuals, media reports, or any source of information available to the employer that the alien is unauthorized to work, or (3) the employer acts with reckless disregard for the legal consequences of permitting a third party to provide or introduce an illegal alien into the employer's work force. Knowledge cannot be inferred solely on the basis of an individual's accent or foreign appearance.

Actual specific knowledge is not required. For example, a newspaper article stating that ballrooms depend on an illegal alien work force of dance hostesses was held by the courts to be a reasonable ground for suspicion that unlawful conduct had occurred.

IT IS ILLEGAL FOR NONPROFIT OR RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS to knowingly assist an employer to violate employment sanctions, REGARDLESS OF CLAIMS THAT THEIR CONVICTIONS REQUIRE THEM TO ASSIST ALIENS. Harboring or aiding illegal aliens is not protected by the First Amendment. It is a felony to establish a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of federal immigration law. Violators may be fined or imprisoned for up to five years.

Encouraging and Harboring Illegal Aliens

It is a violation of law for any person to conceal, harbor, or shield from detection in any place, including any building or means of transportation, any alien who is in the United States in violation of law. HARBORING MEANS ANY CONDUCT THAT TENDS TO SUBSTANTIALLY FACILITATE AN ALIEN TO REMAIN IN THE U.S. ILLEGALLY. The sheltering need not be clandestine, and harboring covers aliens arrested outdoors, as well as in a building. This provision includes harboring an alien who entered the U.S. legally but has since lost his legal status.

An employer can be convicted of the felony of harboring illegal aliens who are his employees if he takes actions in reckless disregard of their illegal status, such as ordering them to obtain false documents, altering records, obstructing INS inspections, or taking other actions that facilitate the alien's illegal employment. Any person who within any 12-month period hires ten or more individuals with actual knowledge that they are illegal aliens or unauthorized workers is guilty of felony harboring. It is also a felony to encourage or induce an alien to come to or reside in the U.S. knowing or recklessly disregarding the fact that the alien's entry or residence is in violation of the law. This crime applies to any person, rather than just employers of illegal aliens. Courts have ruled that "encouraging" includes counseling illegal aliens to continue working in the U.S. or assisting them to complete applications with false statements or obvious errors. The fact that the alien is a refugee fleeing persecution is not a defense to this felony, since U.S. law and the UN Protocol on Refugees both require that a refugee must report to immigration authorities without delay upon entry to the U.S.

The penalty for felony harboring is a fine and imprisonment for up to five years. The penalty for felony alien smuggling is a fine and up to ten years' imprisonment. Where the crime causes serious bodily injury or places the life of any person in jeopardy, the penalty is a fine and up to twenty years' imprisonment. If the criminal smuggling or harboring results in the death of any person, the penalty can include life imprisonment. Convictions for aiding, abetting, or conspiracy to commit alien smuggling or harboring, carry the same penalties. Courts can impose consecutive prison sentences for each alien smuggled or harbored. A court may order a convicted smuggler to pay restitution if the alien smuggled qualifies as a victim under the Victim and Witness Protection Act. Conspiracy to commit crimes of sheltering, harboring, or employing illegal aliens is a separate federal offense punishable by a fine of up to $10,000 or five years' imprisonment.

Enforcement

A person or entity having knowledge of a violation or potential violation of employer sanctions provisions may submit a signed written complaint to the INS office with jurisdiction over the business or residence of the potential violator, whether an employer, employee, or agent. The complaint must include the names and addresses of both the complainant and the violator, and detailed factual allegations, including date, time, and place of the potential violation, and the specific conduct alleged to be a violation of employer sanctions. By regulation, the INS will only investigate third-party complaints that have a reasonable probability of validity. Designated INS officers and employees, and all other officers whose duty it is to enforce criminal laws, may make an arrest for violation of smuggling or harboring illegal aliens.

State and local law enforcement officials have the general power to investigate and arrest violators of federal immigration statutes without prior INS knowledge or approval, as long as they are authorized to do so by state law. There is no extant federal limitation on this authority. The 1996 immigration control legislation passed by Congress was intended to encourage states and local agencies to participate in the process of enforcing federal immigration laws. Immigration officers and local law enforcement officers may detain an individual for a brief warrantless interrogation where circumstances create a reasonable suspicion that the individual is illegally present in the U.S. Specific facts constituting a reasonable suspicion include evasive, nervous, or erratic behavior; dress or speech indicating foreign citizenship; and presence in an area known to contain a concentration of illegal aliens. Hispanic appearance alone is not sufficient. Immigration officers and police must have a valid warrant or valid employer's consent to enter workplaces or residences. Any vehicle used to transport or harbor illegal aliens, or used as a substantial part of an activity that encourages illegal aliens to come to or reside in the U.S. may be seized by an immigration officer and is subject to forfeiture. The forfeiture power covers any conveyances used within the U.S.

RICO -- Citizen Recourse

Private persons and entities may initiate civil suits to obtain injunctions and treble damages against enterprises that conspire to or actually violate federal alien smuggling, harboring, or document fraud statutes, under the Racketeer-Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO). The pattern of racketeering activity is defined as commission of two or more of the listed crimes. A RICO enterprise can be any individual legal entity, or a group of individuals who are not a legal entity but are associated in fact, AND CAN INCLUDE NONPROFIT ASSOCIATIONS.

Tax Crimes

Employers who aid or abet the preparation of false tax returns by failing to pay income or Social Security taxes for illegal alien employees, or who knowingly make payments using false names or Social Security numbers, are subject to IRS criminal and civil sanctions. U.S. nationals who have suffered intentional discrimination because of citizenship or national origin by an employer with more than three employees may file a complaint within 180 days of the discriminatory act with the Special Counsel for Immigration-Related Unfair Employment Practices, U.S. Department of Justice. In additon to the federal statutes summarized, state laws and local ordinances controlling fair labor practices, workers compensation, zoning, safe housing and rental property, nuisance, licensing, street vending, and solicitations by contractors may also apply to activities that involve illegal aliens.



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Under California law it is a 10,000 dollar fine to knowingly hire and illegal. My husban is going to become a General Contractor and it is on the State exam. People need to call and verify with the Social Security Department after making a copy of the social. I'd bet they would be suprised at what they find out in these cases.